Transcript - Interview: Jonathan Capehart Interviews Joe Biden on MSNBC - October 21, 2022 | Factba.se

Jonathan Capehart

00:00:00 - 00:00:02 ()

Mr. President, thank you very much for being here.

Joe Biden

00:00:02 - 00:00:03 ()

Happy to be with you.

Jonathan Capehart

00:00:03 - 00:00:21 ()

Now we're here at Delaware State University where you talked about college affordability, your student debt relief program. And we'll get to that in a moment, but we got to talk about some of the big news today, the biggest being the January 6th Committee formally subpoenaed a former president, Donald Trump.

Jonathan Capehart

00:00:21 - 00:00:26 ()

There are a lot of issues involved here. Should he comply?

Joe Biden

00:00:26 - 00:00:46 ()

Well, look, I'm not going to opine on what he should do, but I think the committee handled it very well. They've been straight forward and to the point, and it seems to me it would make sense, but I'm not going to get -- because if I get in that, then they're going to end this well am I influencing the committee and the rest.

Joe Biden

00:00:46 - 00:00:49 ()

So I've been very, very circumspective on anything I've been saying.

Jonathan Capehart

00:00:49 - 00:00:57 ()

One more question on that, though. What would it say to the American people if he didn't testify do you think?

Joe Biden

00:00:57 - 00:01:04 ()

Well a portion of them they'd say that's great, and to a larger portion I think they'd say that was a mistake.

Jonathan Capehart

00:01:04 - 00:01:33 ()

Mr. President, I'll be honest. I'm scared. Millions of Americans are scared. They're concerned about the concerted attacks on democracy, on voting, and how that's going to impact the midterm elections. We're seeing everything from Governor DeSantis' election police force, arresting people for alleged violations of voter -- for voter fraud.

Jonathan Capehart

00:01:33 - 00:01:49 ()

We're seeing election workers quitting because of threats. And then, on top of it you've got election deniers up and down the ballot running for election. A good chunk of them could win, so why shouldn't we be scared?

Joe Biden

00:01:49 - 00:02:28 ()

Well I think we should be concerned. Look, there's nothing automatic about democracy. Remember, when you're in undergraduate school they talk about every generation has to protect democracy. Well, it really does. And I think we're at one of those inflection points in history where we've reached a point where there has been such a division that you have what I'd call the -- the "mega MAGA" Republicans who are -- think that it's all right to threaten violence, think it's -- that's an appropriate talk about how they are concerned about security, but yet you saw what happened on January 6th, the whole world saw it.

Joe Biden

00:02:28 - 00:02:54 ()

And -- but I think there's reason for concern. But I'm optimistic about two things, Jonathan. Number one, we've been here before. And I -- I believe that the essence of who we are as a nation, the soul of country, is really about our commitment to the basic fundamental elements that make us Americans, which is the idea of fairness, decency, honesty.

Joe Biden

00:02:54 - 00:03:05 ()

And I think it's baked in to a majority of the American people. And I think as long as we take seriously the threat, I don't think the threat can come to fruition.

Jonathan Capehart

00:03:05 - 00:03:25 ()

Well, on that point, Mr. President, there was a -- a startling headline in The New York Times -- let's see if I can -- if I can find it, where it said that a majority of Americans believe that democracy is under threat and yet they don't see it as a priority, protecting democracy. I mean, why do you think that is?

Joe Biden

00:03:25 - 00:03:47 ()

[Crosstalk] I think -- well, I think they do. I think under threat and a concern on other issues meld. In other words, you know, when you say it's under threat, they worry about basic rights being taken away. They worry about the idea that you can have a -- people in public life talk about one another in the way they do with such bitterness.

Joe Biden

00:03:47 - 00:04:12 ()

Look, you know, the organizing -- we're unique in all of them -- all of history. We're the most unique nation in the world. And I'm not being -- I'm not trying to beat our chest about who we are as Americans. We're the only nation that is not built on ethnicity, geography, whatever. It's on a notion that we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men and women are created equal.

Joe Biden

00:04:12 - 00:04:42 ()

We've never fully lived up to it, but we've never walked away from it. And it's the core of all of this, I think, is that concern. It's a concern that -- that, you know, the soul is sort of the breath and the essence of who we are. And it ultimately gets down to not supporting violence, not supporting -- making sure that you have -- you count the votes when they're cast, not intimidating anyone who is at the polls, not intimidating anyone who wants to vote.

Joe Biden

00:04:42 - 00:04:46 ()

And I still think that's a rock bottom core issue in America.

Jonathan Capehart

00:04:46 - 00:04:50 ()

How did we get to this point, though?

Joe Biden

00:04:50 - 00:05:24 ()

Well, I think there are a number of things that happened. Number one, I think that we -- we began to -- we had a leader who concluded that -- that the truth didn't matter a whole lot, and used the modern version of the old racist kind of baiting that we used to -- that used to be the case, you know, 40, 50 years ago in parts of the country.

Joe Biden

00:05:24 - 00:05:58 ()

And -- and I think it -- it just -- I don't think enough people took it seriously to begin with. And for me, what changed things for me was I hadn't planned on running again. And I think you know this. If I'm taking too much time, stop me. But and when I saw those folks down in Charlottesville coming onto the fields, carrying Nazi swastikas, torches, singing the same antisemitic bile that was sung at the time in -- in the '30s in Germany, and accompanied by the white supremacists, a young woman got killed.

Jonathan Capehart

00:05:58 - 00:05:59 ()

Mm-hmm. Heather Heyer.

Joe Biden

00:05:59 - 00:06:32 ()

And they ask -- and I talked to her mom. And when she got killed and the president was asked, what did you think? He said there were fine people on both sides. No president has even said anything like that. And it's a reflection of this notion that whatever it takes to have power is appropriate, and I just -- I just find it disturbing, and I believe, though, that in 2020, for example, more people to showed up to vote than any time in American history.

Joe Biden

00:06:32 - 00:06:34 ()

I think they're going to do it again.

Jonathan Capehart

00:06:34 - 00:07:06 ()

On that point about people being in it for power, power's sake, a far-right conservative person said earlier this month about the Senate rate in Georgia, and I quote, "I don't care if Herschel Walker paid to abort endangered baby eagles. I want control of the Senate." You were in the Senate a long time, 1973 to 2008. You know that institution inside and out, better than anybody probably who's ever served, and in that time, you served with many Republicans.

Joe Biden

00:07:06 - 00:07:07 ()

Many conservative Republicans.

Jonathan Capehart

00:07:07 - 00:07:18 ()

Right. Super conservative Republicans. My question to you, though, Mr. President, is can our democracy survive when the Republican Party is -- it only cares about power?

Joe Biden

00:07:18 - 00:07:51 ()

Well look, I think that if we allow the Republican Party to continue to metastasize into what it -- a minority of the party as a whole is, look, I think one of the reasons there's not more mainstream conservative Republicans running out there is because they're so concerned about not only their physical well-being but also the notion that how can they win when a minority of Republicans are showing up to vote and they're really hard edge.

Joe Biden

00:07:51 - 00:08:11 ()

Look, I don't agree with anything that Liz Cheney believes about the substantive issues, but I admire the hell out of her. She means what she says. She doesn't support the notion of use of violence. She doesn't support the notion -- she insists that there are basic fundamental rules. And it used to be that way all through the Senate.

Joe Biden

00:08:11 - 00:08:34 ()

I mean, hell, I served with Jim Eastland and Strom Thurmond. You know, I served with really conservative members in the United States Senate. But afterwards, after we'd argue like hell, we go down to the Senate Dining and everybody would eat together. There was still an understanding that the differences maybe profound, but they don't justify the kind of activities you're seeing today.

Jonathan Capehart

00:08:34 - 00:09:05 ()

Well you mentioned Congresswoman Cheney who has battled a lot with now House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy. He could be the next Speaker of the House if the Republicans take the majority. And he said about support of -- financial support of Ukraine, that Ukraine -- support for Ukraine, quote, "It can't be a blank check." In response you said among other things these guys don't get it and they have no sense of American foreign policy.

Jonathan Capehart

00:09:05 - 00:09:10 ()

But given what Leader McCarthy said, should he even be Speaker?

Joe Biden

00:09:10 - 00:09:40 ()

Well look, I can understand somebody having that view who's uninformed and believe it because it cost so much money to help them. We're spending a lot of money helping the Ukrainians, but it's so much more than the Ukrainians. It's about NATO. It's about Western Europe. It's about making sure that -- that Putin is not able to succeed in the way that he is using the brutality of his activities.

Joe Biden

00:09:40 - 00:10:17 ()

And I think that -- I just think it's about, again, this notion of power. And either lack of ignorant -- I mean, lack of knowledge or power. One of the two is the driving force, maybe both, but I don't know. Look, Jonathan, I think that this is not a referendum. This is a choice, a choice between what kind of country you want, between, for example, do you let -- do you make sure that we're able to afford prescription drugs for people that are elderly?

Joe Biden

00:10:17 - 00:10:43 ()

Do we have a circumstance where we're able to negotiate -- Medicare's able to negotiate drug prices? Do we -- are we in a position where -- and you go down the list of all the issues that are out there, and we know that -- look, the Republicans have made it clear. First thing they want to do is they -- a lot of them -- most of them voted against the bill to reconstruct America through the infrastructure bill, highways, roads.

Joe Biden

00:10:43 - 00:11:03 ()

They all voted against -- to a person, voted against the Inflation Reduction Act, which provides for environmental security and safety. And I mean, I just don't -- they don't have a platform other than tear down what I've been able to do -- we've been able to do. And I don't know what they're for.

Jonathan Capehart

00:11:03 - 00:11:08 ()

[Begin no video] Got to get you on two more things. [End no video]

Jonathan Capehart

00:11:08 - 00:11:52 ()

You unveiled the new attack line earlier today. You dropped it here just a moment ago. But the full line was "mega MAGA trickle down." Surely, you consider your student loan forgiveness program to be an antidote to that. But here's a problem, I think, for you and Democrats, despite all the good economic news -- low unemployment, record job creation, wage increases, Social Security cost of living adjust to 8.7 percent, the highest in 40 years, and yet, poll after poll shows that it -- American -- the American people trust Republicans on the economy and think that Republicans should control Congress.

Jonathan Capehart

00:11:52 - 00:11:52 ()

How do you -- how do you --

Joe Biden

00:11:52 - 00:11:54 ()

Well, first of all -- [Crosstalk]

Jonathan Capehart

00:11:54 - 00:11:54 ()

Joe Biden

00:11:54 - 00:12:20 ()

I'm not sure about the polls because, you know, the way people conduct polls today, it's hard -- 90 percent of it is you get on a telephone where you have to call seven times to get somebody to answer the phone, number one. Number two, a lot of what we've done and we've passed has not kicked in yet. For example, we have all this money to rebuild highways, bridges, Internet, et cetera, but it's going to take time.

Joe Biden

00:12:20 - 00:12:41 ()

It's not all happening overnight. It's not like we passed the law and, all of the sudden, highways and bridges are all functioning. It's not like we're in a position where we're saying, no senior -- which we do -- is going to have to pay more than $2,000 a year for their drug costs, even though some are paying 13, 14, 15 with help of their families because of cancer drugs and the like.

Joe Biden

00:12:41 - 00:13:00 ()

It hasn't kicked in yet. It doesn't kick in until next year. So a lot of what we've done, people are -- are hurting, they're hurting because when you take away that margin for people sitting around the kitchen table and they're paying three times as much or two times or one-and-a-half times as much for their gasoline, it matters.

Joe Biden

00:13:00 - 00:13:25 ()

I grew up in a family where when that occurred, it was a discussion at home. And so, I think this is a process of people making sure that what we say we're doing really is going to happen. And so that's why these last several weeks, all I'm doing is saying, here's what we're for, here's what they're for, and make a choice and vote.

Joe Biden

00:13:25 - 00:13:28 ()

And I think people are going to show up and vote like they did last time.

Jonathan Capehart

00:13:28 - 00:13:32 ()

One of the things you said you're for, Mr. President, is codifying Roe. You --

Joe Biden

00:13:32 - 00:13:33 ()

Jonathan Capehart

00:13:33 - 00:13:50 ()

You've said you need 51 or 53 seats in order -- in the Senate in order to make that happen -- make that happen. But what happens if Republicans take control of Congress? How are you going to protect women?

Joe Biden

00:13:50 - 00:14:16 ()

Veto anything they do. They have to get -- for them to make Dobbs -- for them to outlaw Roe, outlaw the right of a woman to make a choice with their doctor; to not make exceptions for rape, and invest, and et cetera; and pass it out of the Congress to make it the law of the land, the president has to sign it.

Joe Biden

00:14:16 - 00:14:17 ()

Jonathan Capehart

00:14:17 - 00:15:13 ()

One more question, Mr. President. You haven't officially said you're running for reelection, but NBC's Mike Memoli, who you know well, quotes a senior staffer to the first lady that a 2024 reelection campaign, quote, "Is something both Dr. Biden and the family fully support." And seeing that took me back to your 2017 book "Promise Me, Dad". You wrote about how your late son, Beau, insisted that you run for president in 2016. As we know, you didn't. You ran in 2020, but you write in the book that Beau said it was, quote, "Your obligation." Your, quote, "duty to run." And you also write, "Duty was a word Beau Biden did not use lightly." You're president now and there are plenty of people who are saying that you shouldn't run again because of your age.

Jonathan Capehart

00:15:13 - 00:15:20 ()

I'm wondering what do you think Beau Biden would say to those people who think you shouldn't run again?

Joe Biden

00:15:20 - 00:15:55 ()

It's not so much he'd say to those people. What he'd say to me in my view. The only reason to be involved in public life is can you make life better for other people. And depending on who the opponent is, if they have a view that is so antithesis of what I believe democracy and I believe is good for average Americans, then his argument was, Dad, you have an obligation to do something.

Joe Biden

00:15:55 - 00:16:16 ()

The reason I'm not making a judgment about formally running or not running, once I make that judgment, a whole series of regulations kick in and I have to be -- I treat myself as a candidate from that moment on. I have not made that formal decision, but it's my intention -- my intention to run again. And we have time to make that decision.

Jonathan Capehart

00:16:16 - 00:16:22 ()

Dr. Biden is for it? Mr. President? Oh.

Joe Biden

00:16:22 - 00:16:38 ()

Dr. Biden thinks that -- my wife thinks that I -- that we're -- that we're doing something very important, and I shouldn't walk away from it.

Jonathan Capehart

00:16:38 - 00:16:42 ()

Joseph R. Biden, President of the United States, thank you very much.

Joe Biden

00:16:42 - 00:16:42 ()

Thank you, Jonathan.

Note

00:16:42 - 00:16:42 ()

[An additional portion of the interview, where Biden and Capehart were walking on the campus of Delaware State University, was released. It was not clear if this portion occurred before or after the sitdown interview at Delaware State University.]

Jonathan Capehart

00:16:42 - 00:16:46 ()

We're at Delaware State University. HBCU --

Joe Biden

00:16:46 - 00:16:46 ()

Jonathan Capehart

00:16:46 - 00:16:55 ()

-- in your home state. And of course, it makes me think, probably, the most preeminent HBCU graduate in the United States, the vice president of the United States.

Joe Biden

00:16:55 - 00:16:55 ()

Jonathan Capehart

00:16:55 - 00:16:58 ()

Vice President Harris. How's she doing? You're almost two years in.

Joe Biden

00:16:58 - 00:17:31 ()

She's doing great. She is -- first of all, she's smart as hell. She has she has a backbone like a ramrod, and she has enormous integrity. And -- but if you take a look out there, there isn't any public figure that is, you know, with 60% favorable ratings. I mean, you know, most of the -- and -- but she is doing a great job.

Joe Biden

00:17:31 - 00:17:58 ()

And she is -- and she is really, really thoroughly informed and, particularly on areas of foreign policy and national security issues. And so I find her to be extremely, extremely well qualified and a great asset. We have lunch once a week and -- and she is and -- she -- there's nothing that she is cut off from.

Joe Biden

00:17:58 - 00:18:06 ()

We engage her in everything. And, but it's I think she's doing a great job.

Jonathan Capehart

00:18:06 - 00:18:15 ()

Since we're on a college campus, you gave a you gave a speech about college affordability, your student loan program, which got a couple of wins yesterday with the cases --

Joe Biden

00:18:15 - 00:18:15 ()

Jonathan Capehart

00:18:15 - 00:18:26 ()

-- the judge's ruling in your program's favor. In addition to that, Mr. President, you also did that blanket pardon for people with federal charges of simple --

Joe Biden

00:18:26 - 00:18:26 ()

Jonathan Capehart

00:18:26 - 00:18:36 ()

-- marijuana possession -- that the commentary is you did this as a way of getting the youth vote. Do you think that -- do you think that's going to work?

Joe Biden

00:18:36 - 00:19:01 ()

I got over 60% of youth vote last time. I didn't do that. And, but -- but here, look, here's what it is. It's not what's going to work. It's what's fair. The idea that someone would sit in a federal prison for the possession and use -- not a sale, not the sale to minors, not the trafficking, not just possession -- to sit in a federal prison makes no sense to me.

Joe Biden

00:19:01 - 00:19:19 ()

None. And -- and, it just -- anyway, so I've been thinking about this for a long time and done a fair amount of research on whether or not just the mere use of marijuana. I'm not trying to legalizing --

Jonathan Capehart

00:19:19 - 00:19:19 ()

Joe Biden

00:19:19 - 00:19:37 ()

Just the use of it -- is so detrimental. And the idea of putting someone in prison and what happens is, Jonathan, what happens is everything about their background gets put on hold. They can't borrow money, they can't buy a house. They can't -- I mean, because they have a record, they've been in a federal prison.

Joe Biden

00:19:37 - 00:19:56 ()

It's not just to let them out of prison. Wipe the record clean. Wipe it clean. It is there's no rationale, in my view, for someone and thousands of young people being in a situation where they are put behind the eight ball the rest of life because they use marijuana.

Jonathan Capehart

00:19:56 - 00:20:35 ()

Mmm-hmmm. Mr. President, I can't be with you and not ask you a question concerning my Aunt Gloria, who you may recall was your biggest fan in 2020, because she said, "I'm going to need an old white dude to go after the old -- take on an old white dude." [Laughter] But when I asked her if you should run for reelection and, still, she loves you, but she said she's not sure that you should given your age, that with the one caveat: that if Donald Trump runs again, you absolutely have to run again.

Jonathan Capehart

00:20:35 - 00:20:41 ()

So, let's say Trump doesn't run again. Convince Aunt Gloria that she should stick with you.

Joe Biden

00:20:41 - 00:21:02 ()

Well, I think Aunt Gloria should take a look -- I think it's a legitimate thing to be concerned about anyone's age, including mine. I think it's totally legitimate. But I think the best way to make the judgment is to -- to, you know, watch me. You know, am I slowing up? Am I -- I don't have the same pace, you know?

Joe Biden

00:21:02 - 00:21:35 ()

And that old joke, you know, everybody talks about the, you know, the new 70s, 50s and all that stuff. You know, I -- you know, it could be -- I'm a great respecter of fate. I could get to disease. I could, you know, drop dead tomorrow. But I, you know, in terms of my energy level, in terms of how much I'm able to do, I think people should look and say, is he -- is he still have the same passion for what he's doing?

Joe Biden

00:21:35 - 00:21:56 ()

And if they think I do and I can do it, then that's fine. If they don't, then they should vote against me -- not against me. They should encourage me not to go. But that's not how I feel. I can't even say the age I'm going to be. I can't get it out of my mouth. [Laughter[ I can't. I mean, I swear to God, it's like, No, I mean, I know that can't be true.

Joe Biden

00:21:56 - 00:21:58 ()

And you think I'm joking? You know I'm not joking.

Jonathan Capehart

00:21:58 - 00:21:59 ()

I know you're not joking. [Laughter]

Joe Biden

00:21:59 - 00:22:32 ()

It's just -- it's just strange. But I think Aunt Gloria should just take a real hard look, and if she concludes that I -- I'm missing a beat, then she should, you know, support some other Democrat if they decide to run. But, Jonathan, right now, knock on wood, don't want to jinx myself. You know, I'm in good health, all of my -- everything physically about me is still functioning well. [Laughter] So, you know, and mentally, too.

Joe Biden

00:22:32 - 00:22:38 ()

So, you know, I -- I just -- but I understand people want to ask that question.

Jonathan Capehart

00:22:38 - 00:22:43 ()

Which is the better job, senator or president?

Joe Biden

00:22:43 - 00:23:12 ()

There's only one reason, I think, to be in public life. I really mean it: can you make life better for other people? And there's no place that you have a better opportunity to do that as President of the United States. The difference between being president, being a senator, even a, quote, important senator, chairmen of committees and all of that, is that nothing gets to the president that hasn't been able on -- that hadn't got to him because it's been unable to be solved in the meantime.

Joe Biden

00:23:12 - 00:23:36 ()

And so it's one of the things that is the difficult part of this. And I mean, I literally I get up, work out at 8:00 in the morning and I go to bed at 11:00 at night. I mean, they send me -- tell my staff to not put those big briefing books together for me when I walk out the door. But all kidding aside, it's -- there's just a whole lot out there.

Joe Biden

00:23:36 - 00:23:41 ()

But I'm going to say something I probably should consider not saying.

Jonathan Capehart

00:23:41 - 00:23:42 ()

Joe Biden

00:23:42 - 00:24:13 ()

Is that -- I have more substantive experience on the issues facing the country, both in foreign policy, domestic policy, than any president ever, just because I've been around so long doing this. And so the bad part is I feel like I'm in a good position and make the right decisions. But some of the decisions are really -- are almost toss ups.

Joe Biden

00:24:13 - 00:24:36 ()

They're hard. And I'm not saying I get everything right, but I -- but it's not the facts that are missing. It's the judgment about the other players. For example, I read -- I know every major world leader I've known almost every major world leader for the last 20 years because of my role. And, you know, as vice president, I did an awful lot of foreign policy for the president.

Joe Biden

00:24:36 - 00:25:02 ()

It's -- a lot of it is, just -- it's the same in the Senate -- knowing and accurately assessing what the other guy's, woman is thinking and how to get to go, because I still think there's enormous possibility to reach compromise on important things. On important things. So you can't always get it your own way, but you can get a move in a long way.

Joe Biden

00:25:02 - 00:25:20 ()

And I just, you know, right now, you know, who knows what happens? Look, you know my history. I -- I got elected to the Senate when I was 29. I thought at the top of the world and six weeks later and my wife and daughter were killed. My two boys almost died because they got struck by a tractor trailer.

Joe Biden

00:25:20 - 00:25:36 ()

I'm a great respecter for fate, of fate. And so -- but right now I feel completely capable of doing the job as well as anybody could do the job. And -- and -- and it's -- we'll see.