Transcript: Impeachment Hearing, Day 3 (Afternoon): Kurt Volker, Timothy Morrison
November 19, 2019 @ 02:30 pm ET


ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:00:00.000 - 00:00:24.440]: The meeting will come to order. Good afternoon. This is the fourth in a series of public hearings the committee will be holding as part of the House of Representatives impeachment inquiry. Without objection the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the committee at any time. There is a quorum present.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:00:24.440 - 00:00:45.480]: We will proceed today in the same fashion as our other hearings. I will make an opening statement and then the Ranking Member will have an opportunity to make his opening statement then we will turn to our witnesses for opening statements and then to questions. With that I now recognize myself to give an opening statement in the impeachment inquiry into Donald J. Trump, the 45th President of the United States.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:00:45.480 - 00:01:09.040]: This afternoon we will hear from two witnesses requested by the minority ambassador Kurt Volker, the State Department special representative for Ukraine negotiations, and Tim Morrison, the senior -- former senior director for European affairs at the National Security Council. I appreciate the minorities request for these two important witnesses as well as undersecretary of state David Hale from whom we will hear tomorrow.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:01:09.040 - 00:01:39.560]: As we have heard from other witnesses when Joe Biden was considering whether to enter the race for the presidency in 2020 the president's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani began a campaign to weaken Vice President Biden's -- Vice President Biden's candidacy by pushing Ukraine to investigate him and his son. To clear away any obstacle to these game days after the new Ukraine President was elected Trump order the recall of Marie Yovanovitch, the American ambassador in Kiev who was known for pushing anticorruption efforts.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:01:39.560 - 00:02:04.520]: Trump also canceled vice President Mike pence's participation in the inauguration of President Zelensky on May 20 and instead sent a delegation headed by energy Secretary Rick Perry, ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland and Ambassador Kurt Volker. These three return from cave and brief President Trump on their encouraging first interactions with the new Ukrainian administration.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:02:04.520 - 00:02:26.840]: Hopes that Trump would agree to an early meeting with Ukrainian President were soon diminished however when Trump pushed back. According to Volker he just didn't believe it, he was skeptical and he also said that's not what I hear, I hear you know he's got some terrible people around him. President Trump also told them he believed that Ukraine tried to take him down.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:02:26.840 - 00:02:48.120]: He told the three amigos talk to Rudy and they did. One of those interactions took place a week before the July 25 phone call between Trump and Zelensky when Ambassador Volker had breakfast with Rudy Giuliani at the Trump Hotel. Volker testified that he pushed back on Giuliani's accusation against Joe Biden.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:02:48.120 - 00:03:24.000]: On July 22, just days before Trump would talk to Zelensky, Ambassador Volker had a telephone conference with Giuliani and Andriy Yermak, the top advisor to the Ukrainian President so that Giuliani could be introduced to Yermak. On July 25 the same day as the call between President Trump and Zelensky but before it took place Ambassador Volker sent a text message to Yermak quote heard from the White House assuming President Zelensky convinces Trump he will investigate/get to the bottom of what happened in 2016 we will nail down date for visit to Washington.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:03:24.000 - 00:04:04.920]: Good luck! Later that day Donald Trump would have the now infamous phone call with Zelensky in which he responded to Ukraine's appreciation for U.S. defense support and a request by President Zelensky to buy more Javelin antitank missiles by saying I would like you to do us a favor though and the favor and all the two investigations that Giuliani had been pushing for into the Bidens in 2016. Ambassador Volker was not on the call but when asked about when it reflected he testified no President of the United States should ask a foreign leader to help interfere in a U.S. election.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:04:04.920 - 00:04:32.800]: Among those listening in on the July 25 call was Tim Morrison who had taken over as the NSC senior director for European affairs at the NSC only days before but had been briefed by his predecessor Fiona Hill about the irregular second channel that was operating in parallel to the official one. Lieutenant Colonel Vindman and Ms. Williams from whom we heard this morning like them Morrison emerged from the call troubled.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:04:32.800 - 00:04:51.000]: He was concerned enough about what he heard on the July 25 call that he went to see the NSC legal advisor soon after it had ended. Colonel Vindman's here was that the president had broken the law potentially but Morrison said of his concern that his concern was that the call could be damaging if it were leaked.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:04:51.000 - 00:05:14.880]: Soon after this discussion with lawyers at the NSC the call record was hidden away on a secure server used to store highly classified intelligence where it remained until late September when the call record was publicly released. Following the July 25 call Ambassador Volker worked with Sondland and the Ukraine president's close advisor Yermak on a statement that would satisfy Giuliani.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:05:14.880 - 00:05:54.080]: When Yermak sent over a draft that still failed to include the specific words Burisma and 2016 Giuliani said the statement would lack credibility. Ambassador Volker then added both Burisma and 2016 to the draft statement. Both Volker and Morrison were by late July aware that the security assistance had been cut off at the direction of the president and acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney appeared as the Ukrainians became aware of the suspension of security assistance and the negotiations over the scheduling of a White House meeting between Trump and Zelensky dragged on the pressure increased and any pretense that there was no linkage soon dropped away.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:05:54.080 - 00:06:17.960]: Morrison accompanied Vice President Pence to Warsaw on September 1 where Pence and Zelensky met and Zelensky raised the suspended security assistance. Following that meeting Sondland approached Yermak to tell him that he believe that what could help move the aid was if the Ukrainian prosecutor general would go to the mic and announce that he was opening the Burisma investigation.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:06:17.960 - 00:06:51.480]: On September 7 Ambassador Sondland had a telephone call with Trump and asked him what he wanted from Ukraine. According to Morrison who spoke with Sondland after the call Trump insisted that there was no quid pro quo but President Zelensky must personally announce the opening of the investigations and he should want to do it. Sondland also said that President Zelensky didn't agree to make a public statement about the investigations U.S. and Ukraine would be at a stalemate meaning it would not receive the much-needed security assistance.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:06:51.480 - 00:07:29.680]: Morrison had a sinking feeling after the call as he realized that the ask was now being directed at Zelensky himself and not the prosecutor general as Sondland had relayed to his senior Ukrainian aid in Warsaw on September 1. While President Trump claimed there was no quid pro quo his insistence that Zelensky himself must publicly announcing investigations or they would be at a stalemate made clear that at least two official acts a White House meeting and $400 million in military aid were conditioned on receipt of what Trump wanted, investigations to help his campaign.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:07:29.680 - 00:07:51.480]: The efforts to secure the investigations would continue for several more days but appear to have abruptly ended soon after three committees of Congress announced an investigation into the Trump Giuliani Ukraine scheme. Only then would the aid be released. I now recognize Ranking Member Nunes for any remarks he would like to make.

DEVIN NUNES [00:07:51.480 - 00:08:23.240]: Welcome back to act two of today's circus ladies and gentlemen. We are here to continue what the Democrats tell us is a serious, somber and even prayerful process of attempting to overthrow a duly elected president. If they are successful the end result would be to disenfranchise tens of millions of Americans who thought the president is chosen by the American people not by 13 Democrat partisans on a committee that is supposed to be overseeing the government's intelligence agencies.

DEVIN NUNES [00:08:23.240 - 00:09:00.720]: And isn't it strange how we have morphed into the impeachment committee presiding over a matter that has no intelligence component whatsoever. Impeachment of course is the jurisdiction of the Judiciary Committee not the Intelligence Committee. But putting this far center court provides two main advantages for the Democrats it made it easier for them to shroud their depositions in secrecy and it allowed them to first give too big of a role in the spectacle to another Democrat Committee Chairman in whom the Democrat leaders obviously have no confidence.

DEVIN NUNES [00:09:00.720 - 00:09:36.520]: Who can possibly view these proceedings as fair and impartial? They are being conducted by Democrats who spent three years saturating the airwaves with dire warnings that President Trump is a Russian agent and these outlandish attacks continue to this very day. Just this weekend in front of a crowd of Democratic Party activists the chairman of this committee denounced President Trump as a profound threat to our democracy and vowed that we will send that charlatan in the White House back to the golden throne he came from.

DEVIN NUNES [00:09:36.520 - 00:10:05.760]: How can anyone believe that people who would utter such dramatic absurdities are conducting a fair impeachment process and are only trying to discover the truth? It is obvious the Democrats are trying to topple the president solely because they despise them because they have promised since election day to impeach him and because they are afraid he will win reelection next year.

DEVIN NUNES [00:10:05.760 - 00:10:51.000]: No witnesses have identified any crime or impeachable offense committed by the president but that doesn't matter. Last week the Democrats told us his infraction was asking for a quid pro quo. This week it's bribery. Who knows what ridiculous crime they will be accusing him of next week? As witnesses the Democrats have called a parade of government officials who don't like President Trump's Ukraine policy even though they acknowledge he provided Ukraine with lethal materi -- military aid after the Obama administration refused to do so. They also resent his conduct of policy through channels outside their own authority and control.

DEVIN NUNES [00:10:51.000 - 00:11:18.160]: These actions they argue contradict the so-called inter-agency consensus. They don't seem to understand that the president alone is constitutionally vested with the authority to set the policy. The American people elect the President not an inter-agency consensus. And of course our previous witnesses had very new -- very little new information to share in these hearings.

DEVIN NUNES [00:11:18.160 - 00:11:41.960]: That is because these hearings are not designed to uncover new information, they are meant to showcase a hand-picked group of witnesses who the Democrats determined through their sacred audition process will provide testimony most conductive and conducive to their accusations. In fact by the time any witness says anything here people are actually hearing it for the third time.

DEVIN NUNES [00:11:41.960 - 00:12:13.880]: They heard it first through the Democrats' cherry-picked leaks to their media sympathizers during the secret depositions and second when the Democrats published those deposition transcripts in a highly staged manner. Of course there are no transcripts from crucial witnesses like Hunter Biden who could testify about his well-paying job on the board of a corrupt Ukrainian company or Alexandra Chalupa who worked on an election meddling scheme with Ukrainian officials on behalf of the Democratic National Committee and the Clinton campaign.

DEVIN NUNES [00:12:13.880 - 00:12:37.280]: That is because the Democrats refused to let us hear from them. As for evidence we are left with -- what we're left with is the transcript of the Trump Zelensky Vogel which the president made public. That means Americans can read for themselves and unremarkable conversation with President Zelensky repeatedly expressed satisfaction with the call afterward.

DEVIN NUNES [00:12:37.280 - 00:13:05.520]: The Democrats however claim President Zelensky was being bribed and therefore he must be lying when he says the call was friendly and posed no problems. There is some irony here. Where we sleep or the Democrats bemoan the damage President Trump supposedly caused to the U.S. Ukrainian relations but when the Ukrainian President contradicts their accusations they publicly dismiss him as a liar.

DEVIN NUNES [00:13:05.520 - 00:13:44.440]: I may be wrong but I'm fairly sure calling a friendly foreign president newly elected a liar violates their so-called interagency consensus. So overall the Democrats would have you believe President Zelensky was being blackmailed with a pause on lethal military aid that he didn't even know about. That President Trump did not mention to him and that diplomats have testified they always assumed would be lifted which it was without the Ukrainians undertaking any of the actions they were supposedly being coerced into doing.

DEVIN NUNES [00:13:44.440 - 00:14:11.360]: This process is not serious, it is not sober and it is certainly not prayerful. It is an ambitious attack to deprive the American people of their right to elect a president the Democrats don't like. As I mentioned the chairman of this committee claims that democracy is under threat. If that's true, it's not the president who poses the danger.

DEVIN NUNES [00:14:11.360 - 00:14:15.400]: I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:14:15.400 - 00:14:43.880]: I thank the gentleman. We are joined this afternoon by Ambassador Kurt Volker and Mr. Timothy Morrison. Ambassador Kurt Volker served in the U.S. Foreign Service for nearly 30 years working on European and Eurasian political and security issues under five different presidential administrations. During the George W. Bush administration, he served as the acting director for European and Eurasian affairs in the national Security Council and later as the deputy assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian affairs.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:14:43.880 - 00:15:09.160]: In 2008, President Bush appointed Ambassador Volker to the United States permanent representative to NATO where he served until May 2009. In July 2017, Ambassador Volker was appointed to be the U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations serving in that position until he resigned in September. It is a pleasure to welcome Mr. Morrison back to the legislative branch where he served for almost 2 decades as a Republican staffer.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:15:09.160 - 00:15:29.400]: He was a professional staff member for representative Mark Kennedy of Minnesota and Senator John Kyle of Arizona. Later, Mr. Morrison served as the longtime policy director for the Republican staff of the House Armed Services Committee. In July 2018, Mr. Morrison joined the national Security Council as senior director for countering weapons of mass destruction.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:15:29.400 - 00:15:50.720]: Following the departure of Doctor Fiona Hill in July 2019, Mr. Morrison assumed the position of senior director for Russia and Europe. Two final points before the witnesses are sworn, first, witnesses -- witness depositions up as part of this inquiry were unclassified in nature and all open hearings will also be here held at the unclassified level.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:15:50.720 - 00:16:20.760]: Any information they touch on unclassified information will be addressed separately. Second, Congress will not tolerate any reprisal, threat of reprisal, or attempt to retaliate against any U.S. government official who testifying before Congress, including you or of any of your colleagues. If you would both please rise and raise your right hand, I will begin by swearing you in. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

TIM MORRISON [00:16:20.760 - 00:16:25.680]: [Inaudible]

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:16:25.680 - 00:16:46.280]: Let the record show that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Thank you, and please be seated. The microphones are sensitive, so please speak directly into them. Without objection, your written statements will also be made part of the record. With that, Mr. Morrison, you are recognized for your opening statement and immediately thereafter, Mr. Ambassador Volker, you are recognized for your opening statement.

TIM MORRISON [00:16:46.280 - 00:17:04.760]: Chairman Schiff, ranking member Nunes and members of the committee, I appear before you today under subpoena to answer your questions about my time as senior director for European affairs at the White House and the national Security Council as related to Ukraine and U.S. security sector assistance to that country.

TIM MORRISON [00:17:04.760 - 00:17:25.120]: I will provide you the most complete and accurate information I can consistent with my obligations to protect classified and privileged information. Whether the conduct that is the subject of this inquiry merits impeachment is a question for the U.S. House of Representatives. I appear here today only to provide factual information based upon my knowledge and recollection of events.

TIM MORRISON [00:17:25.120 - 00:17:51.600]: I will not waste time restating the details of my opening statement for my deposition on October 31 of 2019, which has recently been made public. However, I will highlight that following key points. First, as I previously stated, I do not know who the whistleblower is nor do I intend to speculate as to who the individual may be. Second, I have great respect for my former colleagues from the NSC and the rest of the interagency.

TIM MORRISON [00:17:51.600 - 00:18:15.720]: I'm not here today to question their character or integrity. My recollections and judgments are my own. Some of my colleagues' recollections of conversations and interactions may differ from mine, but I do not view those differences as the result of an untoward purpose. Third, I continue to believe Ukraine is on the front lines of a strategic competition between the West and Vladimir Revanchist Russia.

TIM MORRISON [00:18:15.720 - 00:18:45.440]: Russia is a failing power, but it is still a dangerous one. The United States AIDS Ukraine and her people so they can fight Russia over there and we don't have to fight Russia here. Support for Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty has been a bipartisan objective since Russia's military invasion in 2014. It must continue to be. As I stated during my deposition, I feared at the time of the call on July 25 how its disclosure would play in Washington's political climate.

TIM MORRISON [00:18:45.440 - 00:19:13.520]: My fears have been realized. I understand the gravity of these proceedings, but I beg you not to lose sight of the military conflict underway in eastern Ukraine today. The on growing ongoing illegal occupation of Crimea and the importance of reform of Ukraine's politics and economy. Every day that the focus of discussion involving Ukraine is centered on these proceedings instead of those matters is a date when we are not focused on the interests Ukraine, the United States and Western styled liberalism share.

TIM MORRISON [00:19:13.520 - 00:19:40.160]: Finally, I conclude concluded my active service at the national Security Council the day after I last appeared before you. I left the NSC completely of my own volition. I felt no pressure to resign, nor have I feared any retaliation for my testimony. I made this career choice sometime before I decided to testify on October 31. I'm prepared to answer your questions to the best of my ability and recollection.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:19:40.160 - 00:19:45.160]: Thank you. Ambassador Volker

KURT VOLKER [00:19:45.160 - 00:20:09.840]: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member. Thank you very much for the opportunity to provide this testimony today. As you know, I was the first person to come forward to testify as part of this inquiry. I did so voluntarily and likewise voluntarily provided relevant documentation in my possession in order to be as cooperative, clear, and complete as possible.

KURT VOLKER [00:20:09.840 - 00:20:33.160]: I'm here today voluntarily and I remain committed to cooperating fully and truthfully with this committee. All I can do is provide the facts as I understood them at the time. I did this on October 3 in private and I will do so again today. Like many others who have testified in this inquiry, I'm a career foreign policy professional.

KURT VOLKER [00:20:33.160 - 00:20:59.200]: I began my career as an intelligence analyst for Northern Europe for the Central intelligence agency in 1986. Before joining the State Department in 1988. I served in diplomat of postings, primarily focused on European political and security issues for over 20 years under Presidents Ronald Reagan, George HW Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama.

KURT VOLKER [00:20:59.200 - 00:21:25.600]: My last three positions before leaving the senior foreign service in 2009 were as director for NATO and West European affairs at the national Security Council, principal PD Assistant Secretary of State for European affairs at the State Department and finally as U.S. ambassador to NATO. In the spring of 2017, then Secretary of State Tillerson asked if I would come back to government service as U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations.

KURT VOLKER [00:21:25.600 - 00:21:53.240]: I did this on a part-time voluntary basis with no salary paid by that U.S. taxpayer simply because I believed it was important to serve our country in this way. I believed I could steer U.S. policy in the right direction. For over two years, as U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations, my singular focus was advancing the foreign policy and national security interests of the United States.

KURT VOLKER [00:21:53.240 - 00:22:14.600]: In particular, that meant pushing back on Russian aggression and supporting the development of a strong, resilient, democratic, and prosperous Ukraine, one that overcomes a legacy of corruption and becomes integrated into a wider transatlantic community. This is critically important for U.S. national security.

KURT VOLKER [00:22:14.600 - 00:22:44.480]: If we can stop and reverse Russian aggression in Ukraine, we can prevent it elsewhere. If Ukraine, the cradle of Slavic civilization predating Moscow succeeds as a freedom loving prosperous and secure democracy, it gives us enormous hope that Russia may one day change, providing a better life for Russian people and overcoming its current plague of authoritarianism, corruption, aggression toward neighbors, and threats to NATO and the United States.

KURT VOLKER [00:22:44.480 - 00:23:05.440]: The stakes for the United States and a successful Ukraine could not be higher. At no time was I aware of or knowingly took part in an effort to urge Ukraine to investigate former Vice President Biden. As you know from the extensive real-time documentation, I have provided, Vice President Biden was not a topic of our discussions.

KURT VOLKER [00:23:05.440 - 00:23:33.320]: I was not on that July 25 phone call between President Trump and President Zelensky. I was not made aware of any reference to Vice President Biden or his son by President Trump until the transcript of that call was released on September 25, 2019. From July 7, 2017 until September 27, 2019, I was the lead U.S. diplomat dealing with Russia's war on Ukraine.

KURT VOLKER [00:23:33.320 - 00:24:11.080]: My role was not some irregular channel, but the official channel. I reported directly to Secretaries of State Tillerson and Pompeo, kept the national security advisor and secretary of defense well informed of my efforts and worked closely with Ambassador Yovanovitch and as a senior director Hill and her successor Tim Morrison, then assistant secretary Wes Mitchell and his successor acting assistant secretary Phil Rieger, deputy assistant secretary George Kent, deputy assistant secretary of defense Laura Cooper, NSC director Alex Vindman, and many, many others.

KURT VOLKER [00:24:11.080 - 00:25:06.680]: I have met known many of them for several years. It was a team effort. When Ambassador Yovanovitch Kiev, identified and recommended Bill Taylor to Secretary Pompeo so we would still have a strong, seasoned professional on the ground. For two years before the events at the heart of this investigation took place, I was the most senior U.S. diplomat visiting the conflict zone, meeting with victims of Russia's aggression, urging increased U.S. security assistance, including lethal defensive weapons, working with Ukrainian President Poroshenko and then his successor, President Zelensky, and their teams, working with France and Germany in the so-called Normandy process, pressing for support from NATO, the EU, and OSCE, supporting the OSCE's special monitoring mission, and engaging in negotiations and other contacts with Russian officials.

KURT VOLKER [00:25:06.680 - 00:25:29.960]: At the time I took the position in the summer of 2017, there were major complicated questions swirling in public debate about the direction of U.S. policy toward Ukraine. With the administration lift sanctions against Russia? Would it make some kind of grand bargain with Russia, in which you would trade recognition of Russia's seizure of Ukrainian territory for some other deal in Syria or elsewhere?

KURT VOLKER [00:25:29.960 - 00:25:48.720]: Would the administration recognize Russia's claimed annexation of Crimea? Will this just become another frozen conflict? There also a vast number of vacancies in key diplomatic positions, so no one was really representing the United States in the negotiating process about ending the war in eastern Ukraine.

KURT VOLKER [00:25:48.720 - 00:26:11.320]: During over two years of my tenure as U.S. special representative, we fundamentally turned U.S. policy around. U.S. policy toward Ukraine was strong, consistent, and enjoyed support across the administration, bipartisan support in Congress, and support among our allies and Ukraine. We changed the language commonly used to describe Russia's aggression.

KURT VOLKER [00:26:11.320 - 00:26:36.720]: I was the administration's most outspoken public figure, highlighting Russia's invasion and occupation of parts of Ukraine, calling out Russia's responsibility to end the war. I visited the war zone three times, meeting with soldiers and civilians alike, always bringing media with me to try to raise the public visibility of Russia's aggression and the humanitarian impact on the lives of the citizens of the Donbass.

KURT VOLKER [00:26:36.720 - 00:27:04.760]: We coordinated closely with our European allies and Canada to maintain a united front against Russian aggression and for Ukraine's democracy, reform, sovereignty, and territorial integrity. Ukraine policy is perhaps the one area where the U.S. and its European allies had been in lockstep. This cordon helped -- this coordination helped to strengthen U.S. sanctions against Russia and to maintain EU sanctions as well.

KURT VOLKER [00:27:04.760 - 00:27:34.360]: Along with others in the administration, I strongly advocated for lifting the ban on the sale of lethal defensive weapons -- or lethal defensive arms to Ukraine, advocated for increasing U.S. security assistance to Ukraine, and urged other countries to follow suit. My team and I drafted the Pompeo Declaration of July 25th, 2018, in which the secretary clearly and definitively laid out the U.S. policy of non-recognition of Russia's claimed annexation of Crimea.

KURT VOLKER [00:27:34.360 - 00:28:05.680]: I engage with our allies, with Ukraine, and with Russia in negotiations to implement the Minsk Agreements, holding a firm line on insisting on the withdrawal of Russian forces, dismantling of the so-called People Republics, and restoring Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity. Together with others in the administration, we kept U.S. policy steady through presidential and parliamentary elections in Ukraine and worked hard to strengthen the U.S./Ukraine bilateral relationship under the new president and government, helping shepherd in a peaceful transition of power in Ukraine.

KURT VOLKER [00:28:05.680 - 00:28:27.760]: So, in short, whereas two years ago most observers would have said that time was on Russia's side, by 2019 when I departed we had turned the tables and time was now on Ukraine's side. It's a tragedy for the United States and for Ukraine that our efforts in this area, which were bearing fruit, have now been thrown into disarray.

KURT VOLKER [00:28:27.760 - 00:28:58.120]: One of the critical aspects of my role as U.S. special representative was that, as the most senior U.S. official appointed to work solely on the Ukraine portfolio, I needed to step forward to provide leadership. If we needed to adopt a policy position, I made the case for it. If any -- if we needed to -- if anyone needed to speak out publicly, I would do it. When we fail to get a timely statement about Russia's illegal attack on Ukraine's Navy and seizure of Ukraine sailors, I tweeted about it in order to condemn the act.

KURT VOLKER [00:28:58.120 - 00:29:17.960]: If a problem arose, I know was my job to try to fix it. That was my perspective when I learned in May 2019 that we had a significant problem that was impeding our ability to strengthen our support for Ukraine's new president in his effort to ramp up Ukraine's fight against corruption and implementation of needed reforms.

KURT VOLKER [00:29:17.960 - 00:30:25.800]: I found myself faced with a choice, to be aware of a problem and to ignore it or to except that it was my responsibility to try to fix it. I tried to fix it. The problem was that, despite the unanimous positive assessment and recommendations of those of us who were part of the U.S. presidential delegation that attended the inauguration of President Zelensky, President Trump was receiving a different negative narrative about Ukraine and President Zelensky [Inaudible] Zelensky to the White House.

KURT VOLKER [00:30:25.800 - 00:30:56.680]: The president was very skeptical. Given Ukraine's history of corruption, that's understandable. He said that Ukraine was a corrupt country, full of terrible people. He said they tried to take me down. In the course of that conversation, he referenced conversations with Mayor Giuliani. It was clear to me that, despite the positive news and recommendations being conveyed by this official delegation about the new president, President Trump had a deeply rooted negative view on Ukraine rooted in the past.

KURT VOLKER [00:30:56.680 - 00:31:18.000]: He was receiving other information from other sources, including Mayor Giuliani, that was more negative, causing him to retain this negative view. Within a few days, on May 29th, President Trump indeed signed the congratulatory letter to President Zelensky, which included an invitation to the president to visit him at the White House.

KURT VOLKER [00:31:18.000 - 00:31:49.600]: However, more than four weeks past and we could not nail down a date for the meeting. I came to believe that the president's long held negative view toward Ukraine was causing hesitation in actually scheduling the meeting, much as we had seen in our Oval Office discussion. After weeks of reassuring the Ukrainians that it was just a scheduling issue, I decided to tell President Zelensky that we had a problem with the information reaching President Trump from Mayor Giuliani.

KURT VOLKER [00:31:49.600 - 00:32:14.880]: I did so in a bilateral meeting at a conference on Ukrainian economic reform in Toronto on July 2nd, 2019, where I led the U.S. delegation. I suggested that he call President Trump directly in order to renew their personal relationship and to assure President Trump that he was committed to investigating and fighting corruption, things on which President Zelensky had based his presidential campaign.

KURT VOLKER [00:32:14.880 - 00:32:33.480]: I was convinced that getting the two presidents to talk with each other would overcome the negative perception of Ukraine that President Trump still harbored. President Zelensky's senior aid, Andre Yermak, approach me several days later to ask to be connected to Mayor Giuliani. I agreed to make that connection.

KURT VOLKER [00:32:33.480 - 00:33:08.440]: I did so because I understood that the new Ukrainian leadership wanted to convince those, like Mayor Giuliani who believed such a negative narrative about Ukraine, that times have changed and that, under President Zelensky, Ukrainian -- Ukraine is worthy of your support. The Ukrainians believed that if they could get their own narrative in -- across in a way that convinced Mayor Giuliani that they were serious about fighting corruption and advancing reform, Mayor Giuliani would convey that assessment to President Trump, thus correcting the previous negative narrative.

KURT VOLKER [00:33:08.440 - 00:33:26.960]: That made sense to me and I tried to be helpful. I made clear to the Ukrainians that Mayor Giuliani was a private citizen, the president's personal lawyer, and not representing the U.S. government. Likewise, in my conversations with Mayor Giuliani, I never considered him to be speaking on the president's behalf or giving instructions.

KURT VOLKER [00:33:26.960 - 00:33:46.200]: Rather, the information flow was the other way, from Ukraine to Mayor Giuliani in the hopes that this would clear up the information reaching President Trump. On July 10th, after hearing for Mr. Yermak, I wrote to Mayor Giuliani to seek to get together. And finally, on July 19th, we met for breakfast for a longer discussion.

KURT VOLKER [00:33:46.200 - 00:34:17.840]: At that meeting, I told Mr. Giuliani that in my view the prosecutor general with whom he had been speaking, Mr. Lutsenko, was not credible and was acting in a self-serving capacity. To my surprise, Mayor Giuliani said that he had already come to that same conclusion. Mr. Giuliani also mentioned both the accusations about Vice President Biden and about interference in the 2016 election and stressed that all he wanted to see was for Ukraine to investigate what happened in the past and apply its own laws.

KURT VOLKER [00:34:17.840 - 00:34:43.640]: Concerning the allegations I stressed that no one in the new team governing Ukraine had anything to do with anything that may have happened in 2016. They were making television shows at the time. I also said that it is not credible to me that former Vice President Biden would have been influenced in any way by financial or personal motives in carrying out his duties as vice president.

KURT VOLKER [00:34:43.640 - 00:35:08.560]: A different issue is whether some individual Ukrainians may have attempted to influence the 2016 election or thought they could buy influence. That is at least plausible given Ukraine's reputation for corruption but the accusation of Vice President Biden acted inappropriately did not seem at all credible to me. After that meeting I connected Mayor Giuliani and Mr. Yermak by text and later by phone.

KURT VOLKER [00:35:08.560 - 00:35:36.160]: They met in person on August 2, 2019. In conversations with me following that meeting which I did not attend Mr. Giuliani said that he had stressed the importance of Ukraine conducting investigations into what happened in the past and Mr. Yermak stressed that he told Mr. Giuliani it is the government's program to root out corruption and implement reforms and they would be conducting investigations as part of this process anyway.

KURT VOLKER [00:35:36.160 - 00:35:54.680]: Mr. Giuliani said he believed Ukrainian President needed to make a statement about fighting corruption and that he had discussed this with Mr. Yermak. I said I did not think that this would be a problem since that is the government's position in the way. I followed up with Mr. Yermak and he said that they would indeed be prepared to make a statement.

KURT VOLKER [00:35:54.680 - 00:36:19.040]: He said it would reference Burisma and 2016 in a wider context of bilateral relations and rooting out corruption anyway. There was no mention of Vice President Biden. Rather in referencing Burisma and 2016 election interference it was clear to me that he Mr. Yermak was only talking about whether in the Ukrainians had acted inappropriately.

KURT VOLKER [00:36:19.040 - 00:36:57.680]: At this time I was focused on our goal of getting President Zelensky and President Trump to meet with each other and I believe that they are doing so would overcome the chronically negative view President Trump had towards Ukraine. I was seeking to solve the problem I saw when we met with President Trump in the oval office on May 23. As a professional diplomat I was comfortable exploring whether there was a statement Ukraine could make about its own intentions to investigate possible corruption that would be helpful in convincing Mr. Giuliani to convey to President Trump a more positive assessment of the new leadership in Ukraine.

KURT VOLKER [00:36:57.680 - 00:37:28.040]: On August 16, Mr. Yermak shared a draft with me which I thought looked perfectly reasonable. It did not mention Burisma or 2016 elections or was generic. Ambassador Sondland and I had a further conversation with Mr. Giuliani who said that in his view in order to be convincing that this government represented real change in Ukraine the statement should include specific reference to Burisma and 2016. Again there was no mention of Vice President Biden in these conversations.

KURT VOLKER [00:37:28.040 - 00:37:52.880]: Ambassador Sondland and I discussed these points and I edited the statement drafted by Mr. Yermak to include these points to see how it looked. I then discussed it further with Mr. Yermak. He said that for a number of reasons including the fact that Mr. Lutsenko was still officially the prosecutor general they did not want to mention Burisma or 2016. I agreed and the idea of putting out a statement was shelved.

KURT VOLKER [00:37:52.880 - 00:38:18.040]: These were the last conversations I had about this statement which were on or about August 17-18. My last contact with Mr. Giuliani according to my records was on August 13 until he tried to reach me on September 20, after the impeachment inquiry was launched. At this time that is to say in the middle of August I thought the idea of issuing this statement had been definitively scrapped.

KURT VOLKER [00:38:18.040 - 00:38:41.640]: In September I was surprised to learn that there had been further discussions with Ukrainians about President Zelensky possibly making a statement in an interview with U.S. media similar to what we had discussed in August. Since these events and since I gave my testimony on October 3, a great deal of additional information and perspectives have come to light.

KURT VOLKER [00:38:41.640 - 00:39:03.720]: I have learned many things that I did not know at the time of the events in question. First, at the time I was connecting Mr. Yermak and Mr. Giuliani and disgusting with Mr. Yermak and Ambassador Sondland a possible statement that could be made by the Ukrainian president. I did not know of any linkage between the hold on security assistance and Ukraine pursuing investigations.

KURT VOLKER [00:39:03.720 - 00:39:32.000]: No one had ever said that to me and I never conveyed such a linkage to the Ukrainians. I opposed the hold on U.S. security assistance as soon as I learned about it on July 18 and I thought we could turn it around before the Ukrainians ever knew or became alarmed about it. I did not know the reason for the hold but I viewed it as a U.S. policy problem that we needed to fix internally and I was confident we would do so. I believe the Ukrainians became aware of the hold on August 29, and not before.

KURT VOLKER [00:39:32.000 - 00:39:55.080]: That date is the first time any of them ask me about the hold by forwarding an article that have been published in Politico. When I spoke to the Ukrainians about the hold after August 29 instead of telling them that they needed to do something to get the hold released I told them the opposite, that they should not be alarmed, it was an internal U.S. problem and we were working to get it fixed.

KURT VOLKER [00:39:55.080 - 00:40:21.400]: I did not know others were conveying a different message to them around the same time. Second, I did not know about the strong concerns expressed by then national security advisor John Bolton to members of his NSC staff regarding the discussion of investigations. I participated in the July 10 meeting between National Security Advisor Bolton and then Ukrainian Chairman of the national security and defense counsel, Alex Danyliuk.

KURT VOLKER [00:40:21.400 - 00:40:43.600]: As I remember the meeting was essentially over when Ambassador Sondland made a general comment about investigations. I think all of us thought it was inappropriate. The conversation did not continue and the meeting concluded. Later on in the war room I may have been engaged in a side conversation or had already left the complex because I do not recall further discussion regarding investigations of Burisma.

KURT VOLKER [00:40:43.600 - 00:41:07.480]: Third, I did not understand that others believe that any investigation of Ukrainian company Burisma which had a history of accusations of corruption was tantamount to investigating vice President Biden. I drew a sharp distinction between the two. It has long been U.S. policy under multiple administrations to urge Ukraine to investigate and fight internal corruption.

KURT VOLKER [00:41:07.480 - 00:41:28.680]: I was quite comfortable with Ukraine making its own statement about its own policy of investigating and fighting corruption at home. At the one in person meeting I had with Mayor Giuliani on July 19, Mayor Giuliani raised and I rejected the conspiracy theory that Vice President Biden would have been influenced in his duties as vice president by money paid to his son.

KURT VOLKER [00:41:28.680 - 00:41:49.320]: As I previously testified I have known Vice President Biden for 24 years, he is an honorable man and I hold him in the highest regard. At no time was I aware of or knowingly took part in an effort to urge Ukraine to investigate former Vice President Biden and as you know from the extensive documentation I provided vice president was not a topic of discussion.

KURT VOLKER [00:41:49.320 - 00:42:09.560]: I was not on the July 25 phone calls between President Trump and President Zelensky and I was not made aware of any reference to Vice President Biden or his son by President Trump until the transcript of that call was released on September 25, 2019. Throughout this time I understood that there was an important distinction between Burisma and Biden and I urged the Ukrainians to maintain such a distinction.

KURT VOLKER [00:42:09.560 - 00:42:35.280]: I did not know that President Trump or others had raised Vice President Biden with Ukrainians [Inaudible] conflated the investigation of possible Ukrainian corruption with investigation of the former vice president. In retrospect for the Ukrainians it would clearly have been confusing. In hindsight I now understand that other saw the idea of investigating possible corruption involving the Ukrainian company Burisma as equivalent to investigating former President -- vice president Biden.

KURT VOLKER [00:42:35.280 - 00:42:53.720]: I saw them is very different, the former being appropriate and unremarkable, the latter being unacceptable. In retrospect I should have seen that connection differently and had I done so I would have raised my own objections. Fourth, much has been made of the term Three Amigos in reference to Secretary Perry, Ambassador Sondland and myself.

KURT VOLKER [00:42:53.720 - 00:43:17.320]: I have never use that term in frankly cringe when I hear it because for me the Three Amigos will always refer to Senator McCain, Senator Lieberman and Senator Graham in reference to their work to support the surge in Iraq. Moreover I was never aware of any designation by President Trump for anyone else putting Ambassador Sondland or the three of us as a group in charge of Ukraine policy.

KURT VOLKER [00:43:17.320 - 00:43:40.800]: Rather as I understood it each of us in our own respective official capacities continue to work together after our attendance of President Zelensky's inauguration to push for greater U.S. support for Ukraine. Leading the diplomacy around Ukraine negotiations had long been my official responsibility that I welcomed the added support and influence of cabinet member and our EU ambassador.

KURT VOLKER [00:43:40.800 - 00:44:22.760]: Fifth, I was not aware that Ambassador Sondland spoke with President Trump on July 26 while ambassador Taylor and I were visiting the conflict zone. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, allow me to thank you again for the opportunity to provide this testimony. I believe that U.S. foreign policy and national security interest in Ukraine are of critical importance and I will be pleased to answer your questions.

KURT VOLKER [00:44:22.760 - 00:44:23.760]: Thank you.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:44:23.760 - 00:45:11.240]: Ambassador Volker, I was going to just yield to the minority counsel, but there are a couple of points that you made in your opening statement that I wanted to ask about first. First, you said that now former Attorney General Lutsenko was not credible. Mr. Lutsenko is the author of a number of allegations against Ambassador Yovanovitch, a number of allegations that were shared with John Solomon of the Hill, a number of allegations that have been repeatedly brought up by my Republican colleagues.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:45:11.240 - 00:45:19.480]: Why is it that you found Mr. Lutsenko not credible and told Mr. Giuliani so?

KURT VOLKER [00:45:19.480 - 00:45:45.240]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, the allegations themselves, including those against Ambassador Yovanovitch did not appear to me to be credible at all. I know her to be an incredibly competent perfection all, someone I've worked with for many, many years. The suggestions that she was acting in some inappropriate manner were not credible to me. I've known Vice President Biden for a long time.

KURT VOLKER [00:45:45.240 - 00:46:08.280]: Those accusations were not credible. And then separate from that, I also was aware of the political situation in Ukraine. We had a situation where President Poroshenko appeared to not be in a favorable position going into the elections where it was increasingly apparent then candidate Zelensky was going to win.

KURT VOLKER [00:46:08.280 - 00:46:26.480]: As is often the case in Ukraine, a change in power would mean change in prosecutorial powers as well and there have been efforts in the past to add prosecuting the previous government. I think Mr. Lutsenko in my estimation, and I said this to Mayor Giuliani when I met with him, was interested in preserving his own position.

KURT VOLKER [00:46:26.480 - 00:46:44.480]: He wanted to avoid being fired by a new government in order to prevent prosecution of himself, possible prosecution of himself, possibly also this is something that President Poroshenko would have welcomed as well because he probably would have avoided any efforts to prosecute president partitioning go as well.

KURT VOLKER [00:46:44.480 - 00:46:59.160]: So by making allegations like this and making sure they were reaching U.S. media, I think that Mr. Lutsenko was trying to make himself appear to be an important and influential player in the United States.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:46:59.160 - 00:47:15.160]: Ambassador, let me also ask you about the allegations against Joe Biden, because that has been a continuing refrain from some of my colleagues as well. Why was it you found the allegations against Joe Biden related to his son and Burisma not to be believed?

KURT VOLKER [00:47:15.160 - 00:47:33.240]: Simply because I've known Vice President -- former Vice President Biden for a long time. I know how he respects his duties of higher office and it's just not credible to me that a Vice President of the United States is going to do anything other than act as how he sees best for the national interest.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:47:33.240 - 00:47:54.320]: And finally, ambassador, before I turn it over, I was struck by something you said on page 8 of your statement which reads, "In hindsight, I now understand that others so the idea of investigating possible corruption involving the Ukrainian company Burisma as equivalent to investigating former Vice President Biden.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:47:54.320 - 00:48:21.160]: I saw them as different, the former being appropriate and unremarkable, the latter being unacceptable. In retrospect," you said, "I should have seen that connection differently and had I done so, I would have raised my own objections." What is it now, ambassador, in retrospect that you recognize that you didn't at the time that leads you to conclude that you would or should have raised these objections?

KURT VOLKER [00:48:21.160 - 00:48:43.800]: Yeah, that others did not see the distinction between these things as I saw it. As I said, there is a history of corruption in Ukraine, there's a history with the company of Burisma. It's been investigated. That is well known. There is a separate allegation about the Vice President acting inappropriately.

KURT VOLKER [00:48:43.800 - 00:49:09.320]: His son was a board member of this company, but those things I saw as completely distinct. And what I was trying to do in working with the Ukrainians was to thread a needle to see whether things that they can do that are appropriate and reasonable as part of Ukraine's and policy of fighting corruption that helps clarify for our president that they are committed to that very -- that very effort.

KURT VOLKER [00:49:09.320 - 00:49:23.680]: If there's a way to thread the needle, I thought it was worth the effort to try to solve the problem. As it turns out, I now understand that most of the other people didn't see or didn't consider this distinction that for them it was synonymous.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:49:23.680 - 00:49:40.480]: Well, one of those people who saw it synonymous turns out to be the president of the United States. I take it you didn't know until the call record was released that the president in that call doesn't raise charisma. He asked for an investigation of the Bidens. Is that right?

KURT VOLKER [00:49:40.480 - 00:49:41.080]: That is correct.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:49:41.080 - 00:49:59.440]: I take it since you say that you acknowledge that asking for an investigation of the Bidens would have been unacceptable and objectionable, that had the president asked you to get Ukraine to investigate the Bidens, you would have told him so?

KURT VOLKER [00:49:59.440 - 00:50:00.880]: I would have objected to that, yes, sir.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:50:00.880 - 00:50:02.200]: Mr. Goldman.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:50:02.200 - 00:50:21.960]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just one follow-up on that, Ambassador Volker. When you say thread the needle, you -- you mean that you understood the relationship between Vice President Biden's son and Burisma, but you were trying to separate the two of them in your mind, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [00:50:21.960 - 00:50:45.960]: I believe that they were separate that -- and this references the conversation I had with Mr. Giuliani as well where I think the allegations against Vice President Biden are self-serving and not credible. Separate question is whether it is appropriate for Ukraine to investigate possible corruption of Ukrainians that may have tried to correct things or by influence.

KURT VOLKER [00:50:45.960 - 00:50:52.560]: To me, they are very different things. And as I said, I think the former is unacceptable. I think the latter in this case is

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:50:52.560 - 00:50:56.720]: -- Understood, but you -- you understood the relationship between Hunter Biden and Burisma. That's the

KURT VOLKER [00:50:56.720 - 00:50:58.840]: -- I knew that he had been a board member of the company. Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:50:58.840 - 00:50:59.840]: Let's go back

KURT VOLKER [00:50:59.840 - 00:51:02.200]: -- That's why it was so important to maintain a distinction.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:51:02.200 - 00:51:15.280]: Let's focus on the July 25 call for a moment. And Mr. Morrison, July 25 was they number what for you as that senior director overseeing Ukraine?

TIM MORRISON [00:51:15.280 - 00:51:24.520]: I officially took over on the 15th. Approximately 10 days, very few days actually in the office.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:51:24.520 - 00:51:35.040]: You testified in your deposition that you received an email on the morning of July 25 from Ambassador Sondland shortly before the call. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [00:51:35.040 - 00:51:35.560]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:51:35.560 - 00:51:44.240]: And I believe in that email Ambassador Sondland told you that he had briefed President Trump about the -- in advance of the call. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [00:51:44.240 - 00:51:44.760]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:51:44.760 - 00:51:55.480]: And you also testified that Ambassador Sondland had told you on another occasion that he could call the president whenever he wanted. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [00:51:55.480 - 00:51:57.920]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:51:57.920 - 00:52:09.160]: And on July 25, did you in fact make an effort to confirm whether or not the phone call between Ambassador Sondland and President Trump actually occurred?

TIM MORRISON [00:52:09.160 - 00:52:10.000]: I did.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:52:10.000 - 00:52:11.880]: And did it -- did it happen?

TIM MORRISON [00:52:11.880 - 00:52:12.520]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:52:12.520 - 00:52:23.040]: On other occasions when Ambassador Sondland told you that he spoke with President Trump, did you -- on some other occasions, did you also seek confirmation of that fact?

TIM MORRISON [00:52:23.040 - 00:52:24.880]: On some, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:52:24.880 - 00:52:30.800]: And on those occasions when you did seek to confirm that they had spoken, what did you find?

TIM MORRISON [00:52:30.800 - 00:52:31.560]: They had.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:52:31.560 - 00:53:01.440]: Now, I'm going to pull up a text message on the morning of July 25 between -- well, it should be another one. Oh yeah, sorry. Ambassador Sondland with you, Ambassador Volker. And at 7:54, Ambassador Sondland -- in the morning, Ambassador Sondland says "Call ASAP." Then at 9:35, Ambassador Volker, you respond.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:53:01.440 - 00:53:07.800]: Is the screen working in front of you or just to the side? Yeah. So if you could go ahead and read what you said

KURT VOLKER [00:53:07.800 - 00:53:08.400]: -- Yes

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:53:08.400 - 00:53:10.000]: -- At 9:35.

KURT VOLKER [00:53:10.000 - 00:53:20.040]: Yeah. So I said hi, Gordon. I had got your message. I had a great lunch with Yermak and then passed your message to him. He will see you tomorrow. I think everything is in place.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:53:20.040 - 00:53:24.600]: And who is Yermak?

KURT VOLKER [00:53:24.600 - 00:53:34.120]: Andriy Yermak is the senior advisor to President Zelensky of Ukraine.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:53:34.120 - 00:53:37.920]: Now what was the message that you had received?

KURT VOLKER [00:53:37.920 - 00:54:04.360]: That President Zelensky should be clear, convincing, forthright with President Trump about his commitment to fighting corruption, investigating what happened in the past, get to the bottom of things, whatever there is, and if he does that, President Trump was prepared to be reassured that he would say yes, come on, let's get this date for this visit scheduled.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:54:04.360 - 00:54:09.400]: And did you understand from that message that Ambassador Sondland had spoken to President Trump?

KURT VOLKER [00:54:09.400 - 00:54:22.560]: I wasn't sure whether he had or not. He, as Mr. Morrison just said, said that he does speak with President Trump. I knew that he had conversations in general. I didn't note specifically about one leading up to this.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:54:22.560 - 00:54:28.040]: Now, on the screen in front of you is another text message from you that same morning.

KURT VOLKER [00:54:28.040 - 00:54:28.520]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:54:28.520 - 00:54:31.960]: At 8:36 in the morning to Andriy Yermak.

KURT VOLKER [00:54:31.960 - 00:54:36.920]: Yes, I believe because of the time difference, this is actually in the afternoon in Ukraine.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:54:36.920 - 00:54:39.280]: In Ukraine and so this is East Coast time, that's right.

KURT VOLKER [00:54:39.280 - 00:54:39.440]: Right.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:54:39.440 - 00:54:44.640]: So this is slightly less than a half hour before the call between President Trump and President Zelensky.

KURT VOLKER [00:54:44.640 - 00:54:45.120]: Right, and

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:54:45.120 - 00:54:47.280]: -- And can you just read what you wrote there?

KURT VOLKER [00:54:47.280 - 00:55:02.400]: Yes. And just after the lunch that I had with Andriy Yermak. It says, "Good lunch. Thanks. Heard from White House. Assuming President Zelensky can convince his Trump, he will investigate, get to the bottom of what happened in 2016. We will nail down a date for a visit to Washington. Good luck. See you tomorrow.

KURT VOLKER [00:55:02.400 - 00:55:03.440]: Kurt."

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:55:03.440 - 00:55:08.360]: And does this accurately relay the message that you had received from Ambassador Sondland?

KURT VOLKER [00:55:08.360 - 00:55:08.840]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:55:08.840 - 00:55:16.880]: Now, Mr. Morrison, did the National Security Council also prepare talking points for President Trump for this call?

TIM MORRISON [00:55:16.880 - 00:55:18.840]: The NSC staff did, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:55:18.840 - 00:55:27.760]: And per usual custom, are these -- were these talking points based on the official United States policy objectives?

TIM MORRISON [00:55:27.760 - 00:55:28.280]: They were.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:55:28.280 - 00:55:39.880]: And since there has been a little bit of dispute about what that means, can you explain how official U.S. policy is determined with -- through the interagency process?

TIM MORRISON [00:55:39.880 - 00:55:53.200]: We operate under what's known as NSPM-4, National Security Presidential Memorandum 4. It's available on the Internet. That lays out how the president wants to be provided options for his decision.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:55:53.200 - 00:56:00.360]: And there's an extensive process to finalize any policy, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [00:56:00.360 - 00:56:02.720]: Sometimes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:56:02.720 - 00:56:10.720]: Did you -- Mr. Morrison, you -- you listened to this call on the 25th, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [00:56:10.720 - 00:56:11.040]: I did.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:56:11.040 - 00:56:12.160]: Where did you listen from?

TIM MORRISON [00:56:12.160 - 00:56:13.360]: The White House situation room.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:56:13.360 - 00:56:20.880]: In your deposition, you testified that the call was not what you were hoping to hear. What did you mean by that?

TIM MORRISON [00:56:20.880 - 00:56:41.200]: I was hoping for a mole -- more full throated statement of support from the president concerning President Zelensky's reform agenda, given where we were at the time with respect to the overwhelming mandate President Zelensky's Servant of the Party people had received in the Rata election.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:56:41.200 - 00:56:46.480]: And that Rata, which is the Ukrainian Parliament, that election had occurred four days earlier?

TIM MORRISON [00:56:46.480 - 00:56:47.200]: That sounds right.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:56:47.200 - 00:56:50.960]: And President Zelensky's party won in a landslide, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [00:56:50.960 - 00:56:55.160]: They received more than a -- a -- a majority in their own right.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:56:55.160 - 00:57:02.000]: So, at least in Ukraine, there was tremendous support for Zelensky's anticorruption agenda, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [00:57:02.000 - 00:57:04.600]: At the time.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:57:04.600 - 00:57:14.120]: And within the interagency, within the national security agencies here in the United States, was there broad support for President Zelensky?

TIM MORRISON [00:57:14.120 - 00:57:19.280]: There was broad support for giving President Zelensky a chance.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:57:19.280 - 00:57:27.880]: And to that point, he had shown that he was -- he had at least put his money where his mouth was for the three months that he had been in office, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [00:57:27.880 - 00:57:30.680]: Approximately three months, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:57:30.680 - 00:58:00.320]: Now, I want to show a couple of excerpts from this call record to -- to each of you. The first is President Trump responding to a comment by President Zelensky related to defend support from the United States and the purchase of Javelins. And President Trump then says, "I would like you to do us a favor though, because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:58:00.320 - 00:58:22.960]: They say CrowdStrike. I guess you have one of your wealthy people. The server, they say Ukraine has it." And if we could go to the next excerpt where President Trump says, "The other thing, there's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution. And a lot of people want to find out about that, so whatever you can do with the attorney general would be great.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:58:22.960 - 00:58:41.560]: Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it, it sounds horrible to me." Now, Mr. Morrison, were -- these references to CrowdStrike, the server and 2016 election, and to Vice President Biden and son, where they included in the president's talking points?

TIM MORRISON [00:58:41.560 - 00:58:44.960]: They were not.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:58:44.960 - 00:58:50.160]: And where they consistent with what you understood at that time to be official U.S. policy?

TIM MORRISON [00:58:50.160 - 00:58:54.080]: I -- I was not aware of any -- of -- of much of this at the time.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:58:54.080 - 00:59:06.720]: And in fact, subsequent to this call, you did nothing to implement the -- the investigations that President Trump -- implement the request for the investigations that President Trump asked for, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [00:59:06.720 - 00:59:09.120]: I did not understand any instruction to do so.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:59:09.120 - 00:59:18.080]: And you didn't -- you were not aware of anyone else within your -- you coordinate the interagency process, and you were not aware of anyone else who was doing that either, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [00:59:18.080 - 00:59:18.520]: Correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [00:59:18.520 - 00:59:33.640]: Now, you -- you testified in your deposition that hearing this call confirmed what you called the parallel process that your predecessor, Fiona Hill, had warned you about. What did -- what did you mean by that?

TIM MORRISON [00:59:33.640 - 01:00:08.080]: During the period in which Dr. Hill and I were conducting handoff meetings so that I could be up to speed on the various things that were occurring in the portfolio at the time, she mentioned the traditional NSPM-4 process and the parallel -- parallel process. And in the context of discussing the parallel process, she mentioned issues like Burisma, which were noteworthy me -- to me at the time because I had -- had never heard of them before.

TIM MORRISON [01:00:08.080 - 01:00:15.040]: And upon hearing them in the -- the call, it wound up confirming, okay, there -- there's something here.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:00:15.040 - 01:00:19.120]: And who did she inform you was involved in this parallel process?

TIM MORRISON [01:00:19.120 - 01:00:23.480]: As I recall, it was definitely Ambassador Sondland and I believe Mr. Giuliani.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:00:23.480 - 01:00:32.200]: And after she informed you of this company Burisma, what if anything did you do to determine what that was?

TIM MORRISON [01:00:32.200 - 01:00:38.560]: After that particular handoff meeting, I -- I proceeded to look it up on the Internet. I Googled it.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:00:38.560 - 01:00:42.520]: And did you find that it had some association with Hunter Biden?

TIM MORRISON [01:00:42.520 - 01:00:42.960]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:00:42.960 - 01:01:13.480]: Now, Ambassador Volker, you did not listen to this call, but you testified that you were surprised and troubled when you read the call record after it was released on September 25th. And you also said that after reading the call record it was clear to you that the Biden/Burisma and the 2016 election investigations that President Trump discussed on the call were design to serve the president's political interests, not the national interest.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:01:13.480 - 01:01:15.160]: What did you mean when you said that?

KURT VOLKER [01:01:15.160 - 01:01:22.400]: Sir, I don't recall that language from my testimony. It's from my October 3rd testimony?

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:01:22.400 - 01:01:24.200]: Yes, it was.

KURT VOLKER [01:01:24.200 - 01:01:53.960]: Thank you. Well, what I do mean by that, and -- and I'd like to phrase it in my own words now, is I don't think that raising 2016 elections or Vice President Biden or these -- these things that I consider to be conspiracy theories that have been circulated by the Ukrainians, particularly the former prosecutor general, are -- they're -- they're not things that we should be pursuing as part of our national security strategy with Ukraine.

KURT VOLKER [01:01:53.960 - 01:02:15.280]: We should be supporting Ukraine's democracy, reforms, and its own fight against corruption domestically, its struggle against Russia, its defense capabilities. These -- these are the heart of what we should be doing, and I don't think pursuing these things serves a national interest.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:02:15.280 - 01:02:29.600]: Now, Mr. Morrison, shortly after you heard the July 25th call, you testified that you alerted the NSC legal advisor, John Eisenberg, pretty much right away, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [01:02:29.600 - 01:02:30.240]: Correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:02:30.240 - 01:02:45.880]: And you indicated in your opening statement, or at least from your -- your deposition, that you went to Mr. Eisenberg out of concern over the potential political fallout if the call record became public and -- and not because you thought it was illegal. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [01:02:45.880 - 01:02:47.000]: Correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:02:47.000 - 01:02:56.720]: But you -- you would agree, right, that asking a foreign government to investigate a domestic political rival is inappropriate, would you not?

TIM MORRISON [01:02:56.720 - 01:03:01.000]: It -- it's not what -- it's not what we recommended the president discuss.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:03:01.000 - 01:03:10.840]: Now, in a second meeting with Mr. Eisenberg, what did you recommend that he do to prevent the call record from leaking?

TIM MORRISON [01:03:10.840 - 01:03:13.920]: I recommended we restrict access to the package.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:03:13.920 - 01:03:18.360]: Had you ever asked the NSC legal advisor to restrict access before?

TIM MORRISON [01:03:18.360 - 01:03:18.760]: No.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:03:18.760 - 01:03:25.200]: Did you speak to your supervisor, Dr. Kupperman, before you went to speak to John Eisenberg?

TIM MORRISON [01:03:25.200 - 01:03:25.440]: No.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:03:25.440 - 01:03:31.280]: Did you subsequently learn that the call record had been put in a highly classified system?

TIM MORRISON [01:03:31.280 - 01:03:31.880]: I did.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:03:31.880 - 01:03:38.360]: And what reason did Mr. Eisenberg give you for why the call record was put in the highly classified system?

TIM MORRISON [01:03:38.360 - 01:03:39.280]: It was a mistake.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:03:39.280 - 01:03:41.880]: He said it was just a mistake?

TIM MORRISON [01:03:41.880 - 01:03:44.320]: It -- it was an administrative error.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:03:44.320 - 01:03:53.040]: Now, isn't it also true though that you had authority to restrict access on the regular system if you wanted to?

TIM MORRISON [01:03:53.040 - 01:03:56.880]: I -- I believe I could have instructed the appropriate staff to do so, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:03:56.880 - 01:04:01.080]: So, why did you go to the NSC legal advisor to recommend that?

TIM MORRISON [01:04:01.080 - 01:04:26.240]: Well, I was also concerned that -- based on the participants in the listening room that day, I did not then and I do not now recall any representatives from the NSC legal advisor's office, as they were often on head of state calls but not always, and I wanted to make sure that John Eisenberg as the legal advisor and his deputy were aware to -- to review this particular transcript.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:04:26.240 - 01:04:34.400]: And you wanted them to review it because you were concerned about the political -- potential political consequences, not because of -- anything was wrong?

TIM MORRISON [01:04:34.400 - 01:04:47.680]: Correct. And political consequences is -- was an umbrella term I used in my statement to describe a series of effects I -- I feared about what would happen if and when the content of the transcript or the content of the Mem-Comm leaked.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:04:47.680 - 01:05:13.360]: So just to make sure I understand this correctly Mr. Morrison you -- you heard the call, you recognize that President Trump was not discussing the talking points that the NSC had prepared based on official U.S. policy and was instead talking about the investigations that Fiona Hill had warned you about and then you reported it immediately to the NSC legal advisor.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:05:13.360 - 01:05:15.400]: Is that the correct check of event's here?

TIM MORRISON [01:05:15.400 - 01:05:16.320]: That is correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:05:16.320 - 01:05:41.200]: Now Ambassador Volker in the July 25 call President Zelensky volunteers to President Trump that Rudy Giuliani had already spoken with one of his associates and that President Zelensky hopes Giuliani will come to Ukraine and in response President Trump proceeds to mention Mr. Giuliani on three separate occasions during this call.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:05:41.200 - 01:05:58.920]: You testified about a May 23 meeting in the Oval Office where the President spoke quite negatively about Ukraine and how it tried to take him down and that he also repeated some of the allegations that Mr. Giuliani was making is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:05:58.920 - 01:06:00.040]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:06:00.040 - 01:06:03.000]: And those allegations were in the media were they not?

KURT VOLKER [01:06:03.000 - 01:06:03.480]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:06:03.480 - 01:06:11.920]: And during that meeting President Trump told you and Ambassador Sondland and Secretary Perry to talk to Giuliani isn't that correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:06:11.920 - 01:06:36.800]: He -- I didn't take it as an instruction. I want to be clear about that. He said that is not what I hear you know when we were giving him our assessment about President Zelensky and where Ukraine is that is not what I hear. I hear terrible things he has got terrible people around him, talk to Rudy and I understood in the context him just saying that is where he hears it from.

KURT VOLKER [01:06:36.800 - 01:06:38.840]: I didn't take it as an instruction.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:06:38.840 - 01:06:44.840]: So when he said talk to Rudy you didn't take it to mean for you to talk to Rudy?

KURT VOLKER [01:06:44.840 - 01:07:02.520]: No, I didn't take it that way. I -- I took it as that just part of the dialogue been I hear other things, I hear them from Rudy Giuliani or other people that is not what's going on, he is surrounded by terrible people, talk to Rudy you know it just seemed like part of the dialogue.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:07:02.520 - 01:07:06.920]: Well, after that meeting did you in fact talk to Rudy?

KURT VOLKER [01:07:06.920 - 01:07:39.600]: After that meeting not immediately, no. Remember this was May 23 and we continue to proceed with our effort to get the White House visit for President Zelensky scheduled and to keep ramping up our support for the Ukrainian President and ultimately the Ukrainian government. I did however on July 2 as I was becoming concerned that we were not succeeding at this tell President Zelensky I think we have a problem and that problem being this negative feed of information from Mr. Giuliani.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:07:39.600 - 01:07:49.240]: And ultimately I think as you testified in your opening statement you introduced Mr. Yermak to Mr. Giuliani and they eventually met. Is that right?

KURT VOLKER [01:07:49.240 - 01:07:50.120]: That is correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:07:50.120 - 01:07:59.680]: Now during this whole time in July and after they call into early August when they met Ukraine still desperately wanted that Oval Office meeting for President Zelensky, correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:07:59.680 - 01:08:00.280]: That is current.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:08:00.280 - 01:08:03.640]: And you also wanted that for President Zelensky, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [01:08:03.640 - 01:08:04.560]: That is correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:08:04.560 - 01:08:07.840]: Why was that Oval Office meeting so important to President Zelensky?

KURT VOLKER [01:08:07.840 - 01:08:36.520]: I think that he felt that he was not well understood by President Trump. He is a charismatic leader who ran a remarkable campaign in Ukraine against the legacy of corruption and political malaise that had been there. He had a massive showing in the presidential election, 73% support. He believed he was leading a movement of major change in Ukraine and that President Trump was -- did not see that or didn't appreciate that.

KURT VOLKER [01:08:36.520 - 01:08:44.720]: But if he had a chance to sit down and speak with President Trump face to face he believed that he could be very convincing about that and I agree with him.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:08:44.720 - 01:08:47.080]: That -- that certainly was your assessment, right?

KURT VOLKER [01:08:47.080 - 01:08:50.720]: It was my assessment and I believe it was also what President Zelensky believed.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:08:50.720 - 01:09:02.080]: And certainly that you understood from your experience in Ukraine that there would be a significant boost in legitimacy at home for President Zelensky if there were photos of him in the Oval Office, etc., right?

KURT VOLKER [01:09:02.080 - 01:09:03.400]: Yes, that is correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:09:03.400 - 01:09:13.360]: Now you knew -- you testified in your -- your opening statement that Mr. Giuliani and Mr. Yermak, Zelensky's aide, met on August 2. Where did they meet?

KURT VOLKER [01:09:13.360 - 01:09:14.320]: They met in Madrid.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:09:14.320 - 01:09:21.080]: And what -- did you learn that Mr. Giuliani requested anything of the Ukrainians at that meeting?

KURT VOLKER [01:09:21.080 - 01:09:38.520]: Only when I spoke with Mr. Giuliani afterwards he said that he thought Ukraine should issue a statement and then I spoke with Mr. Yermak after that and he said yes, and we are prepared to make a statement and that then kicked off the series of discussions that I said in my testimony.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:09:38.520 - 01:09:47.200]: We -- we will get into that in a second but Mr. Giuliani did not explain to you what needed to be included in that statement in that call you had?

KURT VOLKER [01:09:47.200 - 01:10:04.480]: He said something more general as I recall. I recall him saying crook -- fight corruption, their commitment to being different. Mr. Yermak told me when I spoke with him as I recall that the statement would include specific mention of Burisma and 2016.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:10:04.480 - 01:10:26.880]: Right. Let's go through some of the text messages so we know exactly who said what and first let's start on August 9. This is a text exchange between you and Ambassador Sondland where Ambassador Sondland writes at the top Morrison ready to get dates as soon as Yermak confirms and what did you respond?

KURT VOLKER [01:10:26.880 - 01:10:32.760]: I said excellent with two exclamation points. How did you sway him with a smile afterwards?

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:10:32.760 - 01:10:39.920]: Ambassador Sondland responded not sure I did, I think POTUS really wants the deliverable and what did you say to that?

KURT VOLKER [01:10:39.920 - 01:10:41.280]: But how does he know that?

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:10:41.280 - 01:10:57.160]: And Ambassador Sondland says yeah, clearly lots of convos going on. Now Mr. Morrison you are referenced in this text message. Have you discussed confirming a date for a White House visit for President Zelensky with Ambassador Sondland around this time?

TIM MORRISON [01:10:57.160 - 01:10:59.320]: I likely would have.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:10:59.320 - 01:11:11.920]: And did you have any discussions with him about a statement that Ukraine was -- that they were trying to get Ukraine to make?

TIM MORRISON [01:11:11.920 - 01:11:13.840]: I did not.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:11:13.840 - 01:11:21.160]: Were you aware that -- do you yourself know what Ambassador Sondland meant by the deliverable?

TIM MORRISON [01:11:21.160 - 01:11:26.320]: I did not at the time, I think I have an understanding now.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:11:26.320 - 01:11:29.560]: And what is the understanding now?

TIM MORRISON [01:11:29.560 - 01:11:36.560]: There seems to have been discussions about a statement various drafts of which have been discussed in various proceedings.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:11:36.560 - 01:11:42.280]: But this to your knowledge was part of that parallel process you were talking about?

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:11:42.280 - 01:12:11.600]: If we can now go to the next exhibit which is another text exchange just a few minutes later between Ambassador Sondland and you, Ambassador Volker where Ambassador Sondland says to avoid misunderstandings might be helpful to ask Andriy for a draft statement embargoed so that we can see exactly what they propose to cover even though Z, Zelensky, does a live presser they can still summarize in a brief statement.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:12:11.600 - 01:12:13.840]: Thoughts? And how did you respond?

TIM MORRISON [01:12:13.840 - 01:12:14.280]: Agree.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:12:14.280 - 01:12:19.720]: And this relates to these statement that Mr. Giuliani wanted, is that right, Ambassador Volker?

KURT VOLKER [01:12:19.720 - 01:12:22.720]: It relates to the statement that he and Mr. Yermak had discussed.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:12:22.720 - 01:12:39.600]: And now to the next day on August 10 there is another text exchange between you and Mr. Yermak who is the same aid that Mr. Giuliani had met in Madrid and if you -- you can read what you wrote at the top at 5:02 PM.

KURT VOLKER [01:12:39.600 - 01:12:49.240]: Right, I wrote I agree with your approach. Let's iron out statement and use that to get date and then President Zelensky can go forward with it.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:12:49.240 - 01:13:03.640]: And Mr. Yermak responds once we have a date we will call for a press briefing to announcing upcoming visit and outlining vision for the reboot of U.S. Ukraine relationship including among other things Burisma and election meddling and investigations and what did you respond?

KURT VOLKER [01:13:03.640 - 01:13:04.640]: Sounds great.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:13:04.640 - 01:13:08.360]: Now the date that he is referring to that is the date for the White House visit?

KURT VOLKER [01:13:08.360 - 01:13:09.520]: That is correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:13:09.520 - 01:13:25.400]: Now two days later on August 12 you receive another text message from Mr. Yermak which reads special attention should be paid to the problem of interference in the political processes of the United States especially with the alleged involvement of some Ukrainian politicians. I want to declare that this is unacceptable.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:13:25.400 - 01:13:39.920]: We intend to initiate and complete a transparent and unbiased investigation of all available facts and episodes which in turn will prevent the recurrence of this problem in the future.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:13:39.920 - 01:13:49.280]: Now Ambassador Volker this was a draft was it not of the statement that you and Mr. Giuliani and Mr. Yermak and Ambassador Sondland have been discussing?

KURT VOLKER [01:13:49.280 - 01:13:56.720]: This is the first draft of that from Mr. Yermak after the conversations that we had.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:13:56.720 - 01:14:02.360]: And it does not mention Burisma or the 2016 election interference, correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:14:02.360 - 01:14:03.400]: It does not.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:14:03.400 - 01:14:11.800]: And you testified in your deposition that you and Ambassador Sondland and Mayor Giuliani have a conversation about this draft after you received it, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [01:14:11.800 - 01:14:12.600]: That is correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:14:12.600 - 01:14:24.920]: And Julie -- Mr. Giuliani said that if the statement did not include Burisma and 2016 election it would not have any credibility is that -- is that right?

KURT VOLKER [01:14:24.920 - 01:14:26.880]: That is correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:14:26.880 - 01:14:39.480]: Now this was the same Rudy Giuliani that President Trump was discussing in that May 23 meeting and ask you to talk -- you and the others to talk to, correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:14:39.480 - 01:14:43.200]: That is the same Mr. Giuliani.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:14:43.200 - 01:14:50.600]: And even at that point on May 23 you were aware of these investigations that he was publicly promoting, correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:14:50.600 - 01:14:58.080]: I knew that he had adopted or was interested in all of those conspiracy theories that had come from Lutsenko.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:14:58.080 - 01:14:59.960]: Back in May you knew that?

KURT VOLKER [01:14:59.960 - 01:15:00.800]: Back in May.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:15:00.800 - 01:15:06.320]: Now he was insisting on a public commitment from President Zelensky to do these investigations, correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:15:06.320 - 01:15:09.400]: Well, now what do we mean by these investigations?

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:15:09.400 - 01:15:12.800]: Burisma and the 2016 election.

KURT VOLKER [01:15:12.800 - 01:15:16.200]: Burisma and 2016, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:15:16.200 - 01:15:29.600]: And at the time that you were engaged in coordinating for this statement, did you find it unusual that there was such an emphasis on a public statement from President Zelensky to carry out the investigations that the president was seeking?

KURT VOLKER [01:15:29.600 - 01:15:51.360]: I didn't find it that unusual. I think when you're dealing with a situation where I believe the president was highly skeptical about President Zelensky being committed to really changing Ukraine after his entirely negative view of the country, that he would want to hear something more from President Zelensky to be convinced that, okay, I'll give this guy a chance.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:15:51.360 - 01:16:03.640]: And he -- perhaps could also wanted a public statement because it would lock President Zelensky in it to do these investigations that he thought might benefit him?

KURT VOLKER [01:16:03.640 - 01:16:12.720]: Well, again, we're -- when we say these investigations, what I understood us to be talking about was Ukrainian corruption, whether anything

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:16:12.720 - 01:16:20.040]: -- Well, what -- what we're talking about is Burisma and the 2016 election.

KURT VOLKER [01:16:20.040 - 01:16:20.320]: Correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:16:20.320 - 01:16:20.640]: Let's just

KURT VOLKER [01:16:20.640 - 01:16:22.720]: -- Correct, yes

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:16:22.720 - 01:16:24.320]: -- We can agree on that.

KURT VOLKER [01:16:24.320 - 01:16:24.880]: Right.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:16:24.880 - 01:16:36.120]: And so, when we're talking about these investigations, isn't it clear that a public statement would be important to Mr. Giuliani because it was politically useful to the president?

KURT VOLKER [01:16:36.120 - 01:16:39.640]: The way I saw it is that it would be helpful.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:16:39.640 - 01:16:40.240]: Right.

KURT VOLKER [01:16:40.240 - 01:16:58.320]: It would be a way of being convincing to Mayor Giuliani and also the president that this team in Ukraine is serious about fighting corruption, reform, that they are different. And if that would be helpful in getting a more positive attitude and the White House meeting scheduled, then that would be useful.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:16:58.320 - 01:17:01.360]: And that would be helpful to get that White House meeting?

KURT VOLKER [01:17:01.360 - 01:17:01.720]: Correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:17:01.720 - 01:17:04.920]: In fact, it was a necessary condition, as you understood at that point, right?

KURT VOLKER [01:17:04.920 - 01:17:17.480]: I wouldn't have called it a necessary condition. And in fact, when it became clear later that we were not able to agree on an agreement that the Ukrainians were comfortable with, I agreed with the Ukrainians just to drop it. It's not worth it.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:17:17.480 - 01:17:37.760]: No, I understand that. But your -- your -- is it your testimony that, based on the text that you wrote linking the investigations and the 2016 election on July 25th to the White House meeting, you're saying that by this point in August with this back and forth that you were unaware that this public statement was a condition for the White House meeting?

KURT VOLKER [01:17:37.760 - 01:17:57.520]: I wouldn't have called it a condition. It's a -- it's a nuance, I guess. But I viewed it as very helpful. If we could get this done, it would help improve the perception that President Trump and others had and that we would get the date for a meeting. If we didn't have a statement, I wasn't giving up and thinking that, oh, then we'll never get a meeting.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:17:57.520 - 01:18:05.080]: Let's go to the next day where there was another text exchange. And at the top, could you just read the first

KURT VOLKER [01:18:05.080 - 01:18:05.600]: -- Yes

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:18:05.600 - 01:18:06.200]: -- Text there?

KURT VOLKER [01:18:06.200 - 01:18:13.720]: It says, "Hi, Andriy, good talking. Following is text with insert at the end for the two key items. We will work on official request."

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:18:13.720 - 01:18:20.440]: And then you'll see the highlighted portion of the next text. The other is identical to your previous one, and then it just adds including

KURT VOLKER [01:18:20.440 - 01:18:21.920]: -- It adds -- it includes that, correct

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:18:21.920 - 01:18:25.280]: -- Including these involving Burisma and the 2016 elections. Is that right?

KURT VOLKER [01:18:25.280 - 01:18:26.280]: That is correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:18:26.280 - 01:18:29.760]: And that was what Mr. Giuliani insisted on adding to the statement?

KURT VOLKER [01:18:29.760 - 01:18:32.560]: That's what he said would be necessary for that to be credible.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:18:32.560 - 01:18:36.920]: And the Ukrainians ultimately did not issue the statement, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [01:18:36.920 - 01:18:37.560]: That is correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:18:37.560 - 01:18:41.880]: And President Zelensky ultimately did not get the Oval Office meeting either, did he?

KURT VOLKER [01:18:41.880 - 01:18:44.520]: Not yet.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:18:44.520 - 01:19:10.920]: Now, I want to move forward to September, in early September when the security assistance begins to more overtly be used as leverage to pressure the Ukrainians to conduct these investigations that President Trump wanted. Mr. Morrison, you accompanied Vice President Pence to Warsaw when he met with President Zelensky, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [01:19:10.920 - 01:19:19.720]: I was in Warsaw when the vice president was designated as the president's representative. I was accompanying Ambassador Bolton.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:19:19.720 - 01:19:25.000]: Understood. You were at the bilateral meeting with the -- with the vice president and President Zelensky, correct?

TIM MORRISON [01:19:25.000 - 01:19:25.600]: I was.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:19:25.600 - 01:19:36.360]: And in that meeting, where the Ukrainians concerned about the hold a security clearance -- security clearance -- military assistance, rather?

TIM MORRISON [01:19:36.360 - 01:19:37.080]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:19:37.080 - 01:19:37.320]: Would

TIM MORRISON [01:19:37.320 - 01:19:38.920]: -- Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:19:38.920 - 01:19:41.200]: What did they say?

TIM MORRISON [01:19:41.200 - 01:19:56.800]: It was the first issue that President Zelensky raised with Vice President Pence. They were very interested. They -- they talked about its importance to -- to Ukraine, its importance the relationship.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:19:56.800 - 01:19:59.680]: And what was Vice President Pence's response?

TIM MORRISON [01:19:59.680 - 01:20:27.600]: The vice president represented that it was a priority for him and that we were working to address, and he characterized President Trump's concerns about the state of corruption in Ukraine and the president's prioritization of getting the Europeans to contribute more to security sector assistance.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:20:27.600 - 01:20:40.040]: And did he directly explained to the Ukrainians that those -- that those for the actual reasons for the hold, or was he just commenting on general concerns of the president?

TIM MORRISON [01:20:40.040 - 01:20:59.560]: I -- I don't know that he necessarily acknowledged a hold. We -- we mentioned that we were reviewing the -- the assistance. I mean, that's the way I -- I heard it. That's the way I would characterize it. And -- and -- and those were the points he raised to help President Zelensky understand where we were in our process.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:20:59.560 - 01:21:12.200]: And to your knowledge though, on sort of the staff level as the coordinator of all the interagency process, you were not aware of any review of the Ukraine security assistance money, were you?

TIM MORRISON [01:21:12.200 - 01:21:32.400]: Well, we were -- we had been running a review. We had been running an interagency process to provide the president the information that I had been prep -- directed to generate for -- for the president's consideration as to the state of interagency support for continuing Ukraine security sector assistance.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:21:32.400 - 01:21:37.120]: And the entire interagency supported the continuation of the security assistance, isn't that right?

TIM MORRISON [01:21:37.120 - 01:21:37.680]: That is correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:21:37.680 - 01:21:51.800]: Now, after this larger meeting with Vice President Pence and President Zelensky, you testified at your deposition that you saw Ambassador Sondland immediately go over and pull Andriy Yermak aside and have a conversation, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [01:21:51.800 - 01:22:04.920]: I mean, it was -- President Zelensky left the room. Vice President Pence left the room. And in sort of an anteroom, Ambassador Sondland and presidential adviser Yermak had this discussion, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:22:04.920 - 01:22:11.920]: And what did Ambassador Sondland say -- tell you that he told Mr. Yermak?

TIM MORRISON [01:22:11.920 - 01:22:23.680]: That the Ukrainians would have to have the prosecutor general make a statement with respect to the investigations as a condition of having the aid lifted.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:22:23.680 - 01:22:30.040]: And you testified that you were not comfortable with what Ambassador Sondland had told you. Why not?

TIM MORRISON [01:22:30.040 - 01:22:45.480]: Well, I was concerned about what I saw as essentially an additional hurdle to accomplishing what I had been directed to -- to help accomplish, which was giving the president the information needed to determine that the security sector assistance could go forward.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:22:45.480 - 01:22:48.560]: So, now there is a -- a whole other wrinkle to it, right?

TIM MORRISON [01:22:48.560 - 01:22:53.240]: There was the appearance of one based on what Ambassador Sondland represented.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:22:53.240 - 01:22:59.200]: And you told Ambassador Taylor about this conversation as well, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [01:22:59.200 - 01:23:03.480]: I -- I probably reached out to Ambassador Taylor to schedule a secure phone call.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:23:03.480 - 01:23:14.800]: And in your deposition, you testified that his testimony, other than one small distinction between President Zelensky and the prosecutor general, was accurate as to what you told him, is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [01:23:14.800 - 01:23:16.240]: About that conversation, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:23:16.240 - 01:23:27.160]: And generally speaking, you confirmed everything that Ambassador Taylor told you except for that one thing and a small other ministerial matter relating to the location of the meeting. Is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [01:23:27.160 - 01:23:27.480]: Correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:23:27.480 - 01:23:31.760]: Now, did you tell Ambassador Bolton about this conversation as well?

TIM MORRISON [01:23:31.760 - 01:23:36.160]: I -- I reached out to him as well and requested his availability for a secure phone call.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:23:36.160 - 01:23:40.200]: And what was his response when you explain to him what Ambassador Sondland had said?

TIM MORRISON [01:23:40.200 - 01:23:41.720]: Tell the lawyers.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:23:41.720 - 01:23:44.080]: Did you go tell the lawyers?

TIM MORRISON [01:23:44.080 - 01:23:45.440]: When I return to the States, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:23:45.440 - 01:23:48.440]: And did he explain to you why he wanted you to tell the lawyers?

TIM MORRISON [01:23:48.440 - 01:23:49.160]: He did not.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:23:49.160 - 01:24:00.000]: Now, a few days later on September 7th, you spoke again to Ambassador Sondland, who told you that he had just gotten off the phone with President Trump, isn't that right?

TIM MORRISON [01:24:00.000 - 01:24:01.600]: That -- that sounds correct, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:24:01.600 - 01:24:06.000]: What did Ambassador Sondland tell you that President Trump said it to him?

TIM MORRISON [01:24:06.000 - 01:24:19.280]: If I recall this conversation correctly, this was where Ambassador Sondland related that there was no quid pro quo, but President Zelensky had to make the statement and that he had to want to do it.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:24:19.280 - 01:24:30.720]: And by that point, did you understand that the statement related to the Biden and 2016 investigations?

TIM MORRISON [01:24:30.720 - 01:24:32.040]: I -- I think I did, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:24:32.040 - 01:24:38.600]: And that that was a -- essentially a condition for the security assistance to be released?

TIM MORRISON [01:24:38.600 - 01:24:40.960]: I understood that that's what Ambassador Sondland believed.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:24:40.960 - 01:24:43.280]: After speaking with President Trump?

TIM MORRISON [01:24:43.280 - 01:24:45.800]: That's what he represented.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:24:45.800 - 01:24:50.560]: Now, you testified that hearing this information gave you a sinking feeling. Why was that?

TIM MORRISON [01:24:50.560 - 01:25:19.400]: Well, I believe if were on September 7, the end of the fiscal year is September 30th. The -- these are one year dollars the DOD and the Department of State funds. So, we only had so much time. And in fact, because Congress imposed a 15 day notification requirement on the State Department funds, September 7th, September 30th, that really means September 15th in order secure a decision from the president to allow the funds to go forward.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:25:19.400 - 01:25:23.000]: Did you tell Ambassador Bolton about this conversation as well?

TIM MORRISON [01:25:23.000 - 01:25:24.640]: I did. I did, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:25:24.640 - 01:25:25.560]: And what did he say to you?

TIM MORRISON [01:25:25.560 - 01:25:27.040]: He said to tell the lawyers.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:25:27.040 - 01:25:29.680]: And why did he say to tell the lawyers?

TIM MORRISON [01:25:29.680 - 01:25:31.000]: He did not explain his direction.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:25:31.000 - 01:25:37.200]: But he's not going to -- he doesn't tell you to go tell the lawyers because you're running up on the eight day deadline there, right?

TIM MORRISON [01:25:37.200 - 01:25:44.280]: Again, I -- I don't know why he -- he directed that, but it seemed reasonable and is consistent with what I was going to do anyway.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:25:44.280 - 01:25:51.640]: Because -- and you weren't going to go tell them because of that concern, right? You were concerned about what you are hearing Ambassador Sondland relay to you, correct?

TIM MORRISON [01:25:51.640 - 01:25:52.720]: Correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:25:52.720 - 01:26:17.440]: So just so we're clear, you -- you reported to concerning conversations that you had with Ambassador Sondland to the lawyers in early September in which you understood from him that the president was withholding security assistance as additional leverage to get Ukraine to publicly announce that specific political investigations that President Trump had discussed on the July 25 call.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:26:17.440 - 01:26:18.560]: Is that accurate?

TIM MORRISON [01:26:18.560 - 01:26:22.920]: I was concerned about what Ambassador Sunderland was -- was saying were requirements. Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:26:22.920 - 01:26:31.120]: Right. And you understood though that the investigations that Ambassador Sondland was referring to were the two that President Trump referenced on that July 25 call, correct?

TIM MORRISON [01:26:31.120 - 01:26:32.040]: By this point, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:26:32.040 - 01:26:38.320]: And during this early September time period, Mr. Morrison, did you have any conversations with Ambassador Volker about any of this?

TIM MORRISON [01:26:38.320 - 01:26:40.720]: I believe we had one conversation.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:26:40.720 - 01:26:42.960]: And what do you recall about that conversation?

TIM MORRISON [01:26:42.960 - 01:27:04.520]: I believe on or about September 6, Ambassador Volker was in town to provide an update on some of his activities and that -- and he provided that update and then we had a one-on-one conversation about this -- this track, this separate process.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:27:04.520 - 01:27:07.880]: And what do you recall saying to him about that separate process?

TIM MORRISON [01:27:07.880 - 01:27:14.160]: I think I was interested in understanding his -- his understanding of events.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:27:14.160 - 01:27:18.400]: Did you explain to him what your understanding of -- of events was?

TIM MORRISON [01:27:18.400 - 01:27:21.320]: I think I was primarily on receive mode.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:27:21.320 - 01:27:25.240]: And Ambassador Volker, what do you -- do you recall this conversation?

KURT VOLKER [01:27:25.240 - 01:27:49.200]: Thank you. I do -- I do remember a conversation with Tim. I'm not sure about the timing. I left around that time to go on a trip, and so it may have been a little bit earlier. I'm not sure about the timing. And what I do remember the discussion being is Tim asking me what is my impression of the role that Ambassador Sondland plays.

KURT VOLKER [01:27:49.200 - 01:28:09.800]: And my response to that was well, I find it helpful that he has political contacts in the White House. I don't have those contacts. I'm working the national security the demonic front, but I don't have the political contacts. And so if he's able to use those to support that same goals that we are working toward, then I viewed that as helpful.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:28:09.800 - 01:28:35.160]: Well, that's a good segue to our next exhibit, which is the September 8 text exchange with you and Ambassador Taylor and Ambassador Sondland. And at the top, Ambassador Sondland says "Guys, multiple convos with Z." That's Zelensky. "POTUS. Let's talk." And then ambassador Taylor about 15, 16 minutes later it says, "Gordon and I just spoke.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:28:35.160 - 01:28:54.120]: I can brief you," meaning you, Ambassador Volker, "If you and Gordon don't connect." Approximately one hour later, Ambassador Taylor says, open "The nightmare is they give the interview and don't get the security assistance. The Russians love it and I quit." And then at the bottom, about five hours later, how do you respond?

KURT VOLKER [01:28:54.120 - 01:28:56.240]: I say, "I'm not in the loop. Talk Monday?"

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:28:56.240 - 01:29:05.160]: So you were not in the loop in terms of all of these conversations that Ambassador Taylor, Mr. Morrison, Ambassador Sondland were having?

KURT VOLKER [01:29:05.160 - 01:29:06.560]: Yes, that's correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:29:06.560 - 01:29:11.320]: And now ultimately, the hold was lifted on September 11. Is that right, Ambassador Volker?

KURT VOLKER [01:29:11.320 - 01:29:12.600]: That's my understanding.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:29:12.600 - 01:29:21.600]: Okay. And Mr. Morrison, were you aware that prior to September 11 that the White House -- that there was a whistleblower complaint circulating around the White House?

TIM MORRISON [01:29:21.600 - 01:29:23.280]: I don't believe so, no.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:29:23.280 - 01:29:26.560]: But you were aware of a request to preserve records, were you not?

TIM MORRISON [01:29:26.560 - 01:29:34.560]: I -- we -- we received a number of those requests. I -- I have a general recollection of one as related to Ukraine.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:29:34.560 - 01:29:37.520]: And one final question. One was the hold lifted?

TIM MORRISON [01:29:37.520 - 01:29:41.440]: As I understand it, the president gave that direction the evening of September 11.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:29:41.440 - 01:29:45.200]: Which is two days after Congress announced an investigation. Were you aware of that?

TIM MORRISON [01:29:45.200 - 01:29:48.280]: I believe I was familiar with the letter from the three committee, Chairman.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:29:48.280 - 01:29:49.920]: I yield.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:29:49.920 - 01:30:05.080]: That concludes that majority 45 minutes. Before I turn to the minority, are you both and your counsel okay or do you need a break? Okay. Ranking member Nunes, your recognized for 45 minutes.

DEVIN NUNES [01:30:05.080 - 01:30:38.520]: Well, Ambassador and Mr. Morrison, I have some bad news for you. TV ratings are way down. Way down. I don't -- don't hold it personally. I don't think it's you guys. But whatever drug deal the Democrats are cooking up, here on the dais, the American people aren't buying it. I know you've both answered this in your opening statements, but I just want to bring a little more clarity to it. Mr. Morrison, I'll start -- start with you.

DEVIN NUNES [01:30:38.520 - 01:30:45.960]: Are -- did anyone ever asked you to bribe or extort anyone at any time during your time in the White House?

TIM MORRISON [01:30:45.960 - 01:30:47.360]: No, sir.

DEVIN NUNES [01:30:47.360 - 01:30:52.520]: And you were the top person for Ukraine in the White House, correct, at the NSC level?

TIM MORRISON [01:30:52.520 - 01:30:56.240]: I would argue Ambassador Bolton would be, but

DEVIN NUNES [01:30:56.240 - 01:30:57.640]: -- Reporting to Ambassador Bolton.

TIM MORRISON [01:30:57.640 - 01:30:58.920]: I was the senior official, yes, sir.

DEVIN NUNES [01:30:58.920 - 01:31:06.920]: Ambassador Volker, you have a storied career. Were very thinking for your service and you were the special envoy to Ukraine.

KURT VOLKER [01:31:06.920 - 01:31:09.120]: That is correct.

DEVIN NUNES [01:31:09.120 - 01:31:15.800]: Did anyone at the White House ever asked you to write or extort anything out of anyone at any time?

KURT VOLKER [01:31:15.800 - 01:31:16.520]: No, sir.

DEVIN NUNES [01:31:16.520 - 01:31:22.040]: I want to thank you both for being here and I'll yield to Mr. Castor.

STEVE CASTOR [01:31:22.040 - 01:31:41.360]: Thank you, Mr. Nunes. Thank you both for being here today and also for participating in the lengthy depositions. Ambassador Volker, you were the first one on October 3 and Mr. Morrison, you were with us on Halloween. So thank you for your participation. Mr. Morrison, I also want to thank you, a longtime Hill staffer.

STEVE CASTOR [01:31:41.360 - 01:31:49.560]: I certainly have appreciation for that. Nearly 20 years, so thank you. And Ambassador Volker [Inaudible]

KURT VOLKER [01:31:49.560 - 01:31:51.120]: Absolutely.

STEVE CASTOR [01:31:51.120 - 01:31:53.720]: It's an incredible part of the country.

KURT VOLKER [01:31:53.720 - 01:31:54.920]: Very proud of it.

STEVE CASTOR [01:31:54.920 - 01:32:03.080]: Yeah, I'm from nearby. I just want to walk through some of your positions. You were Senate confirmed ambassador to NATO for a stent.

KURT VOLKER [01:32:03.080 - 01:32:04.120]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:32:04.120 - 01:32:11.440]: And then you were at the State Department and your portfolio span much of what I believe George Kent has currently?

KURT VOLKER [01:32:11.440 - 01:32:24.440]: I was the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary, so I had all working for the assistant secretary, I had all of Europe and Eurasia and particular responsibility for NATO, Western Europe, and the European Union.

STEVE CASTOR [01:32:24.440 - 01:32:30.600]: And then you -- you were involved with the national Security Council. You had -- you are the director for NATO and Western Europe?

KURT VOLKER [01:32:30.600 - 01:32:31.480]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:32:31.480 - 01:32:36.080]: And then you were the senior director for -- for European and Eurasian affairs?

KURT VOLKER [01:32:36.080 - 01:32:40.280]: I was acting for several months, six months or so in that capacity.

STEVE CASTOR [01:32:40.280 - 01:32:42.680]: Okay. Much like the job that

KURT VOLKER [01:32:42.680 - 01:32:43.920]: -- Same job that

STEVE CASTOR [01:32:43.920 - 01:33:03.360]: -- Mr. Morrison had. And we'll note that all the witnesses that we have interacted with have just heaped praise on you. Ambassador Yovanovitch said you were a brilliant diplomat, so that's very high praise. And for over two years, you served as the special representative for Ukraine negotiations.

KURT VOLKER [01:33:03.360 - 01:33:04.080]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:33:04.080 - 01:33:06.040]: And you served for free?

KURT VOLKER [01:33:06.040 - 01:33:07.440]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:33:07.440 - 01:33:09.720]: You served on a voluntary basis

KURT VOLKER [01:33:09.720 - 01:33:10.200]: I did.

STEVE CASTOR [01:33:10.200 - 01:33:14.040]: And you put a lot of time and effort into that job, didn't you?

KURT VOLKER [01:33:14.040 - 01:33:14.680]: Yes, I did.

STEVE CASTOR [01:33:14.680 - 01:33:17.440]: The taxpayers got there -- certainly got their money's worth, didn't they?

KURT VOLKER [01:33:17.440 - 01:33:18.480]: Not for me to say.

STEVE CASTOR [01:33:18.480 - 01:33:29.560]: And you believe America's policy towards Ukraine has been strengthened during your tenure as the special representative.

KURT VOLKER [01:33:29.560 - 01:33:33.960]: Absolutely. When I look back at the record, I think we -- we did an awful lot to support Ukraine.

STEVE CASTOR [01:33:33.960 - 01:33:36.560]: And is it fair to say that in part due to President Trump?

KURT VOLKER [01:33:36.560 - 01:33:48.520]: President Trump approved each of the decisions made along the way providing legal defense of equipment and the nonrecognition statement on Crimea I think being two of the most important ones.

STEVE CASTOR [01:33:48.520 - 01:33:56.760]: And for many years there have been an initiative in the interagency to advocate for a lethal defensive weaponry for Ukraine. Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:33:56.760 - 01:33:57.400]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:33:57.400 - 01:34:02.960]: And it wasn't until President Trump and his administration came in that that went through?

KURT VOLKER [01:34:02.960 - 01:34:08.480]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:34:08.480 - 01:34:18.400]: The delegation to President Zelensky's inauguration in May, I believe you testified it was one of the largest delegations.

KURT VOLKER [01:34:18.400 - 01:34:23.720]: I believe it was. I can't be 100 percent sure, but I believe it was the largest national delegation.

STEVE CASTOR [01:34:23.720 - 01:34:28.000]: Okay, and included in that delegation was Secretary Perry?

KURT VOLKER [01:34:28.000 - 01:34:37.440]: Secretary Perry, Ambassador Sondland, myself, Senator Ron Johnson was there, and also the charge d'affaires at the U.S. Embassy at the time, Joe Pennington.

STEVE CASTOR [01:34:37.440 - 01:34:49.880]: Okay. And the -- we talked a little bit this morning, but President Zelensky's inauguration came together rather quickly?

KURT VOLKER [01:34:49.880 - 01:34:54.240]: It did. I believe we had about three day's notice in which to put the delegation together.

STEVE CASTOR [01:34:54.240 - 01:35:06.160]: There's been some discussion about whether the Vice President was going to be able to lead that effort. And as it turned out, he was not able to lead it. Do you have any information as to why the Vice President was unable to join?

KURT VOLKER [01:35:06.160 - 01:35:06.720]: I don't.

STEVE CASTOR [01:35:06.720 - 01:35:14.680]: And Mr. Morrison, do you have any information as to why the Vice President was unable to participate in the delegation?

TIM MORRISON [01:35:14.680 - 01:35:15.520]: No.

STEVE CASTOR [01:35:15.520 - 01:35:30.880]: Ambassador Volker, you testified during your deposition that aid in fact does get held up from time to time for a whole assortment of reasons. Is that your understanding?

KURT VOLKER [01:35:30.880 - 01:35:32.480]: That is true.

STEVE CASTOR [01:35:32.480 - 01:35:41.320]: And sometimes the holdups are rooted in something at OMB, sometimes it's at the Defense Department, sometimes it's at the State Department, sometimes it's on the hill, correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:35:41.320 - 01:35:41.960]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:35:41.960 - 01:35:53.880]: And so, when the aide was held up for 55 days, for Ukraine, that didn't in and of itself strike you as uncommon?

KURT VOLKER [01:35:53.880 - 01:36:05.440]: No, it's something that had happened in my career in the past. I had seen holdups of assistance. I just assumed it was part of the decision-making process. Somebody had an objection and we had to overcome it.

STEVE CASTOR [01:36:05.440 - 01:36:15.840]: And in fact there were concerns that perhaps President Zelensky was they going to be the reformer that he campaigned on?

KURT VOLKER [01:36:15.840 - 01:36:23.920]: That was a supposition that I made because of the meeting with the President on May 23 I thought back could be what is behind it.

STEVE CASTOR [01:36:23.920 - 01:36:29.680]: And in fact the aide was lifted shortly after he was able to convene a Parliament?

KURT VOLKER [01:36:29.680 - 01:36:42.120]: I believe he -- let me get the date straight. I believe yes, he was able to convene the parliament around 1 September and I believe the aide was released on 11 September.

STEVE CASTOR [01:36:42.120 - 01:36:47.000]: And when -- when you say able to convene a Parliament he was able to push through a number of anticorruption initiatives?

KURT VOLKER [01:36:47.000 - 01:36:53.480]: That began with the parliament seated on that day, it was a 24 hour session but then it continued for some time.

STEVE CASTOR [01:36:53.480 - 01:36:55.480]: And that was an encouraging sign?

KURT VOLKER [01:36:55.480 - 01:37:00.400]: It started off in a very encouraging way, yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:37:00.400 - 01:37:13.320]: And other than these things going on in the background with the pause in the aide, the U.S. relationship with the Ukraine you testified are you -- you stated it was about as good as you would want them to be?

KURT VOLKER [01:37:13.320 - 01:37:16.840]: Can you repeat the question? I'm sorry.

STEVE CASTOR [01:37:16.840 - 01:37:24.920]: You -- you testified at your deposition that once the aide was lifted despite all of the things going on in the background that U.S. Ukrainian relations were -- were strong or as good as

KURT VOLKER [01:37:24.920 - 01:37:26.320]: Yes, yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:37:26.320 - 01:37:35.000]: And you -- you referenced that the security sector assistance was lifted, you know any hold on that that there was a positive meeting in New York

KURT VOLKER [01:37:35.000 - 01:37:36.440]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:37:36.440 - 01:37:41.560]: -- at the UNGA and there was momentum and putting pressure on the Russians. Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:37:41.560 - 01:37:45.640]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:37:45.640 - 01:37:53.600]: In your deposition you made it clear that President Trump had a deep-rooted negative view in Ukraine and their corruption in environment.

KURT VOLKER [01:37:53.600 - 01:38:01.240]: Yes. And you first became aware of his views back in September 2017.

KURT VOLKER [01:38:01.240 - 01:38:01.840]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:38:01.840 - 01:38:03.080]: Can you tell us a little bit about that?

KURT VOLKER [01:38:03.080 - 01:38:18.920]: Yes, in September 2017 I was invited by Secretary Tillerson to do a pre-brief with President Trump before his meeting with President [Inaudible] on the margins of the UN General assembly. I did the pre-brief and then I took part in the bilateral meeting.

STEVE CASTOR [01:38:18.920 - 01:38:26.840]: And so long before President Zelensky was elected President Trump had a -- had a negative view of

KURT VOLKER [01:38:26.840 - 01:38:29.240]: Yes, he had a very strongly negative view.

STEVE CASTOR [01:38:29.240 - 01:38:36.320]: Back in 2017 did you remember anything you said or did that -- that gave you a feeling that he had these negative views?

KURT VOLKER [01:38:36.320 - 01:38:50.200]: Yes. I want to be very careful here because this was a bilateral meeting between the two presidents and I don't want to stray into classified material but I can tell you my impression was that he had a very strongly negative view of Ukraine at the time.

STEVE CASTOR [01:38:50.200 - 01:38:58.640]: Fair enough. And you described the presidents skepticism at your deposition. Is that a reasonable position?

KURT VOLKER [01:38:58.640 - 01:39:00.200]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:39:00.200 - 01:39:06.320]: And I believe you said most people who know anything about Ukraine would possibly think that.

KURT VOLKER [01:39:06.320 - 01:39:06.880]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:39:06.880 - 01:39:24.280]: And you viewed it as part of your role to help change his mind, that President Zelensky was a genuine reformer, that he was not running for office for -- for self-enrichment, that he was indeed a good person.

KURT VOLKER [01:39:24.280 - 01:39:26.240]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:39:26.240 - 01:39:42.800]: During the May 23 meeting with the President in the Oval Office could you just relate to us the concerns the President articulated about the Ukraine?

KURT VOLKER [01:39:42.800 - 01:40:42.040]: Yes, the President came into the meeting and he immediately started speaking. He had a -- just a string of comments that Ukraine is a terrible place, they are all corrupt, they are terrible people, they tried to take me down. I tried to explain along with the others that were there, each of us took turns speaking, I tried to explain that President Zelensky agrees with you, then he was elected because of that situation in Ukraine and he has a strong mandate from the people of Ukraine to change it and that is why it is important that we actually show him very strong support now but the President was not convinced and he said that Zelensky is no different, that he has terrible people are around him you know it's not what I hear about Ukraine we aren't telling him I hear that nothing has changed, talk to Rudy that -- back kind of dialogue as I described.

STEVE CASTOR [01:40:42.040 - 01:40:49.240]: And when the President said that the Ukrainians try to take him down did you have any idea what he was referring to?

KURT VOLKER [01:40:49.240 - 01:41:12.480]: I did. I believe that he was referring to the rumors of efforts to interfere in the 2016 election by providing damaging information about the President or about Paul Manafort to the Hillary Clinton campaign. That was one of the rumors that had been out there and that had gotten some support from the Ukrainian prosecutor general.

STEVE CASTOR [01:41:12.480 - 01:41:16.640]: And to the best of your knowledge the President genuinely believe that, right?

KURT VOLKER [01:41:16.640 - 01:41:21.680]: I believe he was concerned about it. I don't know what he actually believed but he brought it up.

STEVE CASTOR [01:41:21.680 - 01:41:30.000]: Okay. And Mr. Morrison you are also aware the presidents skeptical view of foreign aid to generally?

TIM MORRISON [01:41:30.000 - 01:41:31.200]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:41:31.200 - 01:41:37.400]: And that there was an initiative that he was looking at foreign aid pretty broadly?

TIM MORRISON [01:41:37.400 - 01:41:38.280]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:41:38.280 - 01:41:41.760]: In trying to scrutinize to make sure the U.S. taxpayers are getting their money's worth?

TIM MORRISON [01:41:41.760 - 01:41:42.400]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:41:42.400 - 01:41:52.920]: And the President was also interested was he not in better understanding opportunities for increased burden sharing among the Europeans?

TIM MORRISON [01:41:52.920 - 01:41:53.520]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:41:53.520 - 01:41:55.360]: And what can you tell us about that?

TIM MORRISON [01:41:55.360 - 01:42:10.680]: The President was concerned that the United States seem to bear the exclusive brunt of security assistance to Ukraine. He wanted to see the Europeans step up and contribute more security assistance.

STEVE CASTOR [01:42:10.680 - 01:42:22.320]: And was there any interagency activity whether it be with the State Department or the Defense Department, coordination by the national Security Council to look into that a little bit for the President?

TIM MORRISON [01:42:22.320 - 01:42:30.280]: We were surveying the data to understand who was contributing want and sort of in what categories.

STEVE CASTOR [01:42:30.280 - 01:42:38.000]: And so the presidents [Inaudible] concerns the enter agency tried to address them?

TIM MORRISON [01:42:38.000 - 01:42:39.200]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:42:39.200 - 01:42:51.440]: And by late August we just discussed with Ambassador Volker that a new [Inaudible] was seated and did that give possibly some hope that President Zelensky would be able to push through some of these reforms?

TIM MORRISON [01:42:51.440 - 01:42:52.040]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:42:52.040 - 01:43:05.800]: And did you hope during this time. During this 55 days where the aide was paused that potentially Zelensky would be able to demonstrate his bona fides and would subsequently be able to get the President to lift the aide?

TIM MORRISON [01:43:05.800 - 01:43:06.360]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:43:06.360 - 01:43:09.680]: In fact you -- you traveled with Ambassador Bolton to the Ukraine writer around Labor Day weekend, correct?

TIM MORRISON [01:43:09.680 - 01:43:10.360]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:43:10.360 - 01:43:23.320]: And you met with President Zelensky on I believe it was August 20 -- 29th?

TIM MORRISON [01:43:23.320 - 01:43:28.680]: Ambassador Bolton had a meeting with President Zelensky and I staffed that meeting.

STEVE CASTOR [01:43:28.680 - 01:43:35.080]: And that is right around the time when the [Inaudible] had met and they had started to push through their reforms?

TIM MORRISON [01:43:35.080 - 01:43:41.480]: As I recall the meeting -- the day of the meeting between Ambassador Bolton and President Zelensky was actually the first day of the new [Inaudible].

STEVE CASTOR [01:43:41.480 - 01:43:45.200]: And some of these reforms included naming a new prosecutor general?

TIM MORRISON [01:43:45.200 - 01:43:49.680]: A new prosecutor general, a brand-new cabinet, yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:43:49.680 - 01:43:54.880]: And they pushed through some legislation that eliminated immunity for members?

TIM MORRISON [01:43:54.880 - 01:43:57.960]: Yes, eliminating parliamentary immunity.

STEVE CASTOR [01:43:57.960 - 01:44:06.520]: And I believe you provide some color into this experience at this meeting and you said that the Ukrainians have been up all night working on some of these legislative initiatives.

TIM MORRISON [01:44:06.520 - 01:44:13.680]: Yes, the -- the Ukrainians we met were by all appearances exhausted from the pace of activity.

STEVE CASTOR [01:44:13.680 - 01:44:17.040]: And was ambassador Bolton encouraged by the activity?

TIM MORRISON [01:44:17.040 - 01:44:18.640]: Yes, he was.

STEVE CASTOR [01:44:18.640 - 01:44:23.040]: And was the meeting altogether favorable?

TIM MORRISON [01:44:23.040 - 01:44:23.400]: Quite.

STEVE CASTOR [01:44:23.400 - 01:44:31.200]: And at that point in time after the meeting ambassador Bolton did he head off to Warsaw with the vice president or did he just -- I know you went to Warsaw.

TIM MORRISON [01:44:31.200 - 01:44:46.080]: Well, we -- we had a few stops between Ukraine and Poland but yes, ambassador Bolton proceeded to Warsaw where we were expecting to ensure everything was staged properly for the presidents arrival.

STEVE CASTOR [01:44:46.080 - 01:44:49.560]: And did you have an opportunity to brief the vice president?

TIM MORRISON [01:44:49.560 - 01:44:50.280]: I did not.

STEVE CASTOR [01:44:50.280 - 01:44:52.000]: Did ambassador Bolton?

TIM MORRISON [01:44:52.000 - 01:44:52.160]: He did.

STEVE CASTOR [01:44:52.160 - 01:44:59.640]: And what do you remember from what ambassador Bolton shared with the vice president about Zelensky meeting?

TIM MORRISON [01:44:59.640 - 01:45:16.640]: So I was not there. The issue I remember most starkly was ambassador Bolton was quite annoyed that Ambassador Sondland crashed the pre-briefing. But the ambassador had everything he needed to ensure that either the President or the vice president were well-prepared.

STEVE CASTOR [01:45:16.640 - 01:45:25.000]: But did you brief ambassador Bolton before he had an opportunity to meet with the vice president?

TIM MORRISON [01:45:25.000 - 01:45:28.760]: I -- I did any to. I was -- ambassador Bolton was there.

STEVE CASTOR [01:45:28.760 - 01:45:35.640]: But as far as you know ambassador Bolton communicated to the vice president that the goings-on in the Ukraine were positive?

TIM MORRISON [01:45:35.640 - 01:45:36.920]: That is my understanding.

STEVE CASTOR [01:45:36.920 - 01:45:41.440]: With President Zelensky? And at this time ambassador Bolton was advocating for the lifting of the aide?

TIM MORRISON [01:45:41.440 - 01:45:45.120]: He -- he had for some time, yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:45:45.120 - 01:45:46.560]: And did you participate in the Warsaw meetings?

TIM MORRISON [01:45:46.560 - 01:46:01.000]: We -- we had a reduced schedule from what had been arranged for the President for the vice president but the vice president met with President Duda of Poland and he met with President Zelensky and I participated in both meetings.

STEVE CASTOR [01:46:01.000 - 01:46:09.360]: And what do you remember from the meeting with President Zelensky?

TIM MORRISON [01:46:09.360 - 01:46:11.120]: It seemed -- it seemed very positive.

STEVE CASTOR [01:46:11.120 - 01:46:14.760]: What was the message? I mean President Zelensky he raise the issue of the aide, correct?

TIM MORRISON [01:46:14.760 - 01:46:15.040]: Correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:46:15.040 - 01:46:17.600]: And what -- how did the vice president respond?

TIM MORRISON [01:46:17.600 - 01:46:48.560]: He -- he presented his support for the aide, he represented the strong commitment of the United States to Ukraine and he explained that President Trump because this is after the Politico article had come out that made clear there was a hold. He explained that what we were doing was the United States government the -- the enter agency was examining what more Europe could do in the security space and taking a look at how Ukraine was reforming, what -- what has been a history of corruption.

STEVE CASTOR [01:46:48.560 - 01:46:57.480]: And was there any discussion during the meeting with President Zelensky on the part of the vice president about any of these investigations we have come to talk about?

TIM MORRISON [01:46:57.480 - 01:46:57.760]: No.

STEVE CASTOR [01:46:57.760 - 01:46:58.760]: Said Burisma wasn't raised?

TIM MORRISON [01:46:58.760 - 01:46:59.240]: No.

STEVE CASTOR [01:46:59.240 - 01:47:01.240]: 2016 election wasn't raised?

TIM MORRISON [01:47:01.240 - 01:47:01.640]: No.

STEVE CASTOR [01:47:01.640 - 01:47:07.440]: And the vice president didn't mention any investigations at all did he?

TIM MORRISON [01:47:07.440 - 01:47:07.920]: No.

STEVE CASTOR [01:47:07.920 - 01:47:15.240]: You mentioned the August 28th Politico article. Was that the first time that you believed the Ukrainians may have had a real sense that the aid was on hold?

TIM MORRISON [01:47:15.240 - 01:47:16.160]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [01:47:16.160 - 01:47:24.200]: So, from the 55 day period spanning July 18th through September 11th, it didn't really become public until August 28th?

TIM MORRISON [01:47:24.200 - 01:47:47.360]: That -- that's correct. Ambassador Taylor and I had a number of phone calls where we in fact talked about did the Ukrainians know yet, because we both felt very strongly it was important that we ensure that the president was able to make the decision to release the aid before the Ukrainians ever found out about it.

STEVE CASTOR [01:47:47.360 - 01:47:53.000]: Okay. And Ambassador Volker, is -- is that also your -- your recollection?

KURT VOLKER [01:47:53.000 - 01:47:53.560]: Yes it is.

STEVE CASTOR [01:47:53.560 - 01:47:56.960]: But it wasn't until the -- the Politico article that

KURT VOLKER [01:47:56.960 - 01:48:06.880]: -- That's correct. I received a text message from one of my Ukrainian counterparts on August 29th forwarding that article, and that's the first they raised it with me.

STEVE CASTOR [01:48:06.880 - 01:48:11.640]: And can you share a little bit with us about your communications during that time period about the -- holding the aid?

KURT VOLKER [01:48:11.640 - 01:48:28.800]: Yes. I didn't have any communications with the Ukrainians about the hold on aid until after they raised it with me for the same reason that Tim just gave, the hope that we could get it taken care of ourselves before he became something that they became aware of. Inside the U.S. government, I was aware that the hold was placed.

KURT VOLKER [01:48:28.800 - 01:48:54.560]: I was aware of that on July 18th. It was referenced at an interagency meeting, and I got a readout from that meeting from one of my assistants. I then immediately spoke with several people in the administration to object. I thought that this was a bad decision or a bad hold, maybe not a decision but, you know, a -- a process, and I wanted to make sure that all the arguments were marshaled to get it lifted.

KURT VOLKER [01:48:54.560 - 01:49:14.760]: And so, I spoke with the Pentagon, with Laura Cooper. I spoke with Assistant Secretary of POL-MIL Affairs at the State Department, who was going to represent the State Department at the next higher level meeting. I believe I spoke with officials in the European Bureau, with the National Security Council staff.

KURT VOLKER [01:49:14.760 - 01:49:27.800]: So, I was actively trying to convey that this needed to be lifted. And I wanted them to be able to use my name in doing so, because I felt that the best prospect for positioning ourselves for negotiations with Russia is the strongest defense capability for Ukraine.

STEVE CASTOR [01:49:27.800 - 01:49:35.600]: And during this time period, did -- did you come to believe that any of these investigations were -- were part of the -- the hold up in the aid?

KURT VOLKER [01:49:35.600 - 01:49:36.760]: No, I did not.

STEVE CASTOR [01:49:36.760 - 01:49:53.760]: Backtracking just a little bit, on July 3rd you met in Toronto with President Zelensky. And there has been some -- you know, Ambassador Taylor and -- and Mr. Kent provided some testimony that they had some apprehension that part of this irregular channel that Ambassador Taylor reference would -- would rear its head in -- in Toronto.

STEVE CASTOR [01:49:53.760 - 01:49:59.440]: And I'm just wondering if you can tell us whether that in fact happened.

KURT VOLKER [01:49:59.440 - 01:50:23.840]: Yes, thank you. I can only tell you what -- what I know. There may have been other conversations or other things. But I know that we had a conversation, Bill Taylor and I believe Gordon Sondland and I, around the 28th of June that later connected to I believe a conversation with President Zelensky, although I may not have been part of the latter.

KURT VOLKER [01:50:23.840 - 01:50:49.920]: That being said, I was convinced after that conversation we had got nowhere. We had our White House briefing of President Trump on May 23rd. he signed a letter inviting President Zelensky to the White House on May 29th. And for several weeks, we were just temporizing with the Ukrainians saying, well, we're working on it. It's a scheduling issue.

KURT VOLKER [01:50:49.920 - 01:51:30.560]: You know, we'll get there. Don't worry. And I told Bill and Gordon that I was going to see President Zelensky in Toronto, and I feel an obligation to tell him the truth, that we have a problem here and we're not getting a date schedule. Here's what I think the problem is. It's the negative information flow from Mayor Giuliani, and that he would -- I -- also that I would advise him that he should call President Trump personally because he needed to renew that personal relationship and be able to convey to President Trump that he was serious about fighting corruption, investigating things that happened in the past, and so forth.

KURT VOLKER [01:51:30.560 - 01:51:36.240]: So, I -- I did all of that with President Zelensky in -- in a pull aside after our formal bilateral meeting.

STEVE CASTOR [01:51:36.240 - 01:51:42.360]: Okay. And during that meeting in Toronto or this series of meetings, there was no discussion of preconditions, investigations, of -- anything

KURT VOLKER [01:51:42.360 - 01:51:42.760]: -- No

STEVE CASTOR [01:51:42.760 - 01:51:44.560]: -- Of that sort.

KURT VOLKER [01:51:44.560 - 01:51:45.520]: No.

STEVE CASTOR [01:51:45.520 - 01:51:47.800]: And you were there with Mr. Kent?

KURT VOLKER [01:51:47.800 - 01:51:48.760]: Yes, I believe so.

STEVE CASTOR [01:51:48.760 - 01:51:53.160]: And did you ever have any discussions with him about preconditions or investigations?

KURT VOLKER [01:51:53.160 - 01:52:17.120]: Not at that time. I think later on these things came up about -- when we were talking about a statement, whether there were investigations. But I believe at this time in Toronto it was really more referring to investigations generically, that that is how you go about fighting corruption and that President Zelensky should reaffirm his commitment to President Trump in a direct phone call.

STEVE CASTOR [01:52:17.120 - 01:52:24.760]: Okay. And at any point in time did -- had -- had Mr. Kent raise any concerns to you about any of this?

KURT VOLKER [01:52:24.760 - 01:52:25.440]: Not at that time.

STEVE CASTOR [01:52:25.440 - 01:52:44.160]: The next event I want to cover is July 10th meeting in Ambassador Bolton's office. Talked a little bit about it this morning. I don't know if you caught the coverage, but there was testimony that at some point Ambassador Sondland mentioned investigations and reportedly the -- the meeting ended abruptly. What can you tell us about that in fact?

KURT VOLKER [01:52:44.160 - 01:53:05.800]: Thank you. And let me answer that question first. I'd like to come back to your prior question for a second too, if I may. But on the July 10th meeting, this was a meeting that we had arranged between Alex Danyliuk, who is the head of the National Security and Defense Counsel, and National Security Advisor Bolton.

KURT VOLKER [01:53:05.800 - 01:53:27.040]: Attending the meeting was also Secretary Perry, Ambassador Sondland, myself, and I believe Fiona Hill, and also Andriy Yermak. The purpose was really a counterpart visit. I thought that this would be the best opportunity -- it was the first high-level meeting that we were having in Washington with a senior U.S. official, Ambassador Bolton, after President Zelensky's inauguration.

KURT VOLKER [01:53:27.040 - 01:53:49.760]: I thought it would be a great opportunity for the Ukrainians to make their case that they are the new team in town, real deal about fighting corruption. I was rather disappointed with the meeting. As it transpired, it struck me as down in the weeds, talking about the reform of national security structures in Ukraine, legislation that they were working on, and not the big picture and not the bilateral relationship.

KURT VOLKER [01:53:49.760 - 01:54:12.000]: So, I was a bit disappointed by that. At -- at the end of the meeting, I do recall having seen some of the other testimony, I believe Ambassador Sondland did raise the point of investigations in a generic way. This was after the meeting was already wrapping up, and I think all of us thought it was an appropriate and the conversation did not pick up from there.

KURT VOLKER [01:54:12.000 - 01:54:33.720]: It was -- the meeting was over. We all went outside and we had a picture taken in -- in front of the -- the White House. And then all of us except Ambassador Bolton went down to the wardroom to talk through follow-up, about how do we follow up on this meeting to keep the momentum in the relationship. And I think we broke up into several small groups.

KURT VOLKER [01:54:33.720 - 01:54:47.200]: I remember having a conversation with Secretary Perry and one of his assistants about energy reform as part of that. I don't recall other conversations following up on investigations of Burisma.

STEVE CASTOR [01:54:47.200 - 01:54:52.560]: And to the best of your knowledge, there certainly was no precondition discussed, right?

KURT VOLKER [01:54:52.560 - 01:55:17.200]: No. No. Again, the -- the -- the issue of the security assistance was one where I thought that this was really related to a -- a general negative view about Ukraine. There was nothing specific ever communicated to me about it for the reasons why it was held. And we certainly didn't want to talk about it with the Ukrainians.

KURT VOLKER [01:55:17.200 - 01:55:18.960]: We wanted to fix it.

STEVE CASTOR [01:55:18.960 - 01:55:32.240]: Okay. And the -- a couple weeks later, the July 25th call happened. And you were headed to Ukraine during that time period?

KURT VOLKER [01:55:32.240 - 01:55:41.320]: Yes, I was actually already on my way to Ukraine, I -- I think two days prior to that.

STEVE CASTOR [01:55:41.320 - 01:55:49.160]: And you receive readouts both from the U.S. side and the Ukrainian side. Could you tell us about that?

KURT VOLKER [01:55:49.160 - 01:56:08.320]: Yes. So, I was not on the phone call. I had arrived in Ukraine and I have had that lunch with Mr. Yermak that we saw on the day of the phone call. I had been pushing for the phone call because I thought it was important to renew the personal connection between the two leaders and to congratulate President Zelensky on the parliamentary election.

KURT VOLKER [01:56:08.320 - 01:56:29.600]: The readout that I received from Mr. Yermak and then also from the U.S. side, although I'm not exactly sure who was from on the U.S. side, but there was a U.S. and a Ukrainian readout, were largely the same, that it was a good call. It was a congratulatory phone call for the presidents when in the parliamentary election.

KURT VOLKER [01:56:29.600 - 01:56:50.000]: President Zelensky did reiterate his commitment to reform and fighting corruption in Ukraine, and President Trump did reiterate his invitation to President Zelensky to come visit -- visit him in the White House. It's exactly what I thought the phone call would be, so I was not surprised at getting that as the readout.

STEVE CASTOR [01:56:50.000 - 01:56:54.240]: And did you ever have any discussions with Ambassador Taylor about this?

KURT VOLKER [01:56:54.240 - 01:57:05.160]: At that time we were -- we were together in Ukraine at that time. We went the very next day to visit the conflict zone, and I'm sure he heard the same readout that I did.

STEVE CASTOR [01:57:05.160 - 01:57:11.080]: And you had a meeting with President Zelensky on the 26th?

KURT VOLKER [01:57:11.080 - 01:57:21.080]: Yes, we had a meeting the day after the phone call on the 26th in the morning before heading out to the conflict zone.

STEVE CASTOR [01:57:21.080 - 01:57:31.040]: And were any of these concerning elements that some witnesses have raised about the call raised in the meeting with President Zelensky?

KURT VOLKER [01:57:31.040 - 01:57:38.400]: No, only -- the very bare-bones readout that I had received, that was also how was discussed in the meeting with President Zelensky.

STEVE CASTOR [01:57:38.400 - 01:57:49.000]: So, to the extent there's been assertions that President Zelensky was concerned about demands President Trump had made, I

KURT VOLKER [01:57:49.000 - 01:57:50.960]: -- I don't recall that.

STEVE CASTOR [01:57:50.960 - 01:57:52.480]: You -- you don't recall that?

KURT VOLKER [01:57:52.480 - 01:57:53.240]: I do not recall being

STEVE CASTOR [01:57:53.240 - 01:57:53.480]: -- Were

KURT VOLKER [01:57:53.480 - 01:57:58.720]: -- I don't recall -- well, let me turn that around and say he was very positive about the phone call.

STEVE CASTOR [01:57:58.720 - 01:57:59.280]: Okay.

KURT VOLKER [01:57:59.280 - 01:58:05.000]: I don't recall him saying anything about demands, but he was very upbeat about the

STEVE CASTOR [01:58:05.000 - 01:58:06.160]: -- Okay

KURT VOLKER [01:58:06.160 - 01:58:07.960]: -- Fact of the call.

STEVE CASTOR [01:58:07.960 - 01:58:12.880]: And there was no discussion on the part of President Zelensky on how to navigate the various

KURT VOLKER [01:58:12.880 - 01:58:15.120]: -- I don't recall that

STEVE CASTOR [01:58:15.120 - 01:58:20.720]: -- You know, concerns that -- that people have articulated about the call?

KURT VOLKER [01:58:20.720 - 01:58:23.960]: I -- I don't remember that.

STEVE CASTOR [01:58:23.960 - 01:58:37.480]: And Mr. Zeldin asked you in the deposition that in no way shape or form in either readouts from the United States or Ukraine did you receive any indication whatsoever for anything that resembled a quid pro quo. Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [01:58:37.480 - 01:58:41.160]: That's correct.

STEVE CASTOR [01:58:41.160 - 01:58:45.520]: And the same would -- would go for this new allegation of bribery?

KURT VOLKER [01:58:45.520 - 01:58:47.800]: I've only seen an allegation of bribery in the last week.

STEVE CASTOR [01:58:47.800 - 01:58:56.120]: Okay. It's the same comments common set of facts is just instead of quid pro quo now it's bribery.

KURT VOLKER [01:58:56.120 - 01:59:03.240]: I was never involved in anything that I considered to be bribery at all.

STEVE CASTOR [01:59:03.240 - 01:59:06.200]: Okay, or extortion?

KURT VOLKER [01:59:06.200 - 01:59:07.200]: Or extortion.

STEVE CASTOR [01:59:07.200 - 01:59:07.920]: Okay.

KURT VOLKER [01:59:07.920 - 01:59:11.200]: Mr. Castor, may I address two specific points?

KURT VOLKER [01:59:11.200 - 01:59:12.240]: Of course.

KURT VOLKER [01:59:12.240 - 01:59:30.520]: One is I'm reminded that the meeting with Ambassador Bolton and Mr. Danyliuk took place on July 10th and I did not become aware of the hold on security assistance until July 18th. So that is another reason why that did not, come up.

STEVE CASTOR [01:59:30.520 - 01:59:36.560]: Okay. And at that point in time, you did note that the potential pause in the security assistance was that was brewing?

KURT VOLKER [01:59:36.560 - 01:59:39.720]: I did not. No, I heard about it for the first time on 18 July.

STEVE CASTOR [01:59:39.720 - 01:59:40.120]: Okay.

KURT VOLKER [01:59:40.120 - 01:59:44.480]: May I make a second observation as well?

STEVE CASTOR [01:59:44.480 - 01:59:45.000]: Absolutely.

KURT VOLKER [01:59:45.000 - 02:00:07.280]: I do remember, having seen some of the testimony of Mr. Kent, a conversation in which he had asked me about the conspiracy theories that were out there in Ukraine. I don't remember what the date of this conversation was. In my view was well, if there are things like that, then why not investigate them? The chain -- I don't believe the anything to them.

KURT VOLKER [02:00:07.280 - 02:00:23.920]: If there is, 2016 election interference is what I was thinking of, we would want to know about that. But I didn't really. There believe there was anything there to begin with.

STEVE CASTOR [02:00:23.920 - 02:00:32.480]: You testified in your deposition to the extent the Ukrainians were going to investigate other Ukrainians for wrongdoing, that was perfectly appropriate in your mind?

KURT VOLKER [02:00:32.480 - 02:00:35.000]: Correct. It is a -- that has been U.S. policy for years.

STEVE CASTOR [02:00:35.000 - 02:00:41.040]: So if -- if certain Ukrainians involved with the Burisma company -- if they

KURT VOLKER [02:00:41.040 - 02:01:02.760]: -- Well that I think is the only plausible thing to look at their. As I said, I don't find it plausible or credible that Vice President Biden would have been influenced in his duties. But whether individual Ukrainians in the society that we know Ukraine has been for decades were trying to act in a corrupt way or to buy influence, that's plausible.

STEVE CASTOR [02:01:02.760 - 02:01:22.040]: Right. Deputy Assistant Secretary Kent last Wednesday told us about, you know, there was an investigation into Burisma trying to recoup millions of taxpayer dollars and the Ukrainians were pursuing an investigation. There was a bribe paid. Were you tracking that?

KURT VOLKER [02:01:22.040 - 02:01:31.600]: I was aware of those kinds of things. I couldn't give you those kinds of details. I just know that there was at reputation around the company.

STEVE CASTOR [02:01:31.600 - 02:01:47.760]: Okay. And subsequent to the -- to those facts and the bride being paid, the Burisma company wanted to improve their image, added some folks to their boards, including the president of Poland, including Hunter Biden. Are you familiar with that?

KURT VOLKER [02:01:47.760 - 02:01:48.920]: That's what I understand.

STEVE CASTOR [02:01:48.920 - 02:02:06.400]: And to the extent that Ukrainians, the folks affiliated with melisma wanted to hire those people for their board for protection purposes so they could continue to engage in misdeeds, that was a fact worth investigating, you certainly would be supportive of Ukrainians trying to get to the bottom of that, correct?

KURT VOLKER [02:02:06.400 - 02:02:18.480]: Well, I can't speculate as to any of the specifics of what was motivating Burisma or not. Ukrainian government authorities investigating possible corruption by Ukrainian citizens is a perfectly appropriate thing for them to do.

STEVE CASTOR [02:02:18.480 - 02:02:26.600]: Mr. Morrison, I want to turn our attention back to the July 25 call. You were in the room. Did anything concern you on the call?

TIM MORRISON [02:02:26.600 - 02:02:27.280]: No.

STEVE CASTOR [02:02:27.280 - 02:02:49.120]: And after the call ended, you, like Colonel Vindman, one of your next steps was to engage the NSC lawyers and your reasons for doing that were slightly different than Colonel Vindman's and you articulated three -- three concerns. And do you want to share them with us or would you rather I do it?

TIM MORRISON [02:02:49.120 - 02:02:53.280]: So I think I arch articulated two concerns. If I'm remember forgetting one, please remind me.

STEVE CASTOR [02:02:53.280 - 02:02:54.200]: Okay.

TIM MORRISON [02:02:54.200 - 02:03:13.480]: But the two concerns I had were one, I did not see representatives of NSC legal on the call, and so I wanted to make sure that the legal advisor and his deputy were aware of the call and I was also concerned about taking steps to protect the Mem-Con limited disclosure for fear of the consequences of it leaking.

STEVE CASTOR [02:03:13.480 - 02:03:18.880]: And you were concerned about it leaking for because you are worried about how it would play out in Washington's polarized political environment, correct?

TIM MORRISON [02:03:18.880 - 02:03:19.280]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:03:19.280 - 02:03:26.880]: And you were also worried how -- how that would lead to the bipartisan support here in Congress of towards Ukraine, right?

TIM MORRISON [02:03:26.880 - 02:03:27.360]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:03:27.360 - 02:03:31.080]: And you were also concerned that it might affect the Ukrainians perception negatively.

TIM MORRISON [02:03:31.080 - 02:03:31.600]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:03:31.600 - 02:03:37.600]: And in fact, all three of those things have -- have played out, haven't they?

TIM MORRISON [02:03:37.600 - 02:03:37.920]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:03:37.920 - 02:03:42.560]: You -- you didn't ask the -- the lawyers to put it on the code word system, correct?

TIM MORRISON [02:03:42.560 - 02:03:48.480]: I want to be precise about the -- the lexicon here. I did not ask for it to be moved to a compartmented system.

STEVE CASTOR [02:03:48.480 - 02:03:52.280]: Okay. You just wanted the transcript to be controlled?

TIM MORRISON [02:03:52.280 - 02:03:53.760]: I wanted access to be restricted.

STEVE CASTOR [02:03:53.760 - 02:04:05.040]: Okay. And when you learned that the transcript had been stored on the compartmented server, you believed that was a mistake, correct?

TIM MORRISON [02:04:05.040 - 02:04:34.000]: Well, it was represented to me that it was a mistake. I -- I was trying to pull up that men con because we were in the process of pulling together Ambassador Bolton's materials and the presidents' materials for what was a planned bilat between POTUS and president Zelensky. And when I went to do that, I couldn't could not pull up the package in our system and I did not understand why.

TIM MORRISON [02:04:34.000 - 02:04:59.280]: I spoke with the NSC executive secretary staff, asked them why, and they did their research and they informed me it had been moved to the higher classification system at the direction of John Eisenberg, whom I then asked why. I mean that's -- that was the judgment he made, that's not necessarily mine to question, but I didn't understand it and he -- he essentially told me I gave no such direction.

TIM MORRISON [02:04:59.280 - 02:05:16.000]: He did his own inquiry and he represented back to me that it was his understanding was that it was kind of an administrative error that when he also gave direction to restrict access, the executive secretary staff understood that as an apprehension that there was something in the content of the Mem-Con that could not exist on that lower classification system.

STEVE CASTOR [02:05:16.000 - 02:05:20.520]: To the best of your knowledge, there's no malicious intent in moving the transcript to the compartmented server?

TIM MORRISON [02:05:20.520 - 02:05:20.920]: Correct.

STEVE CASTOR [02:05:20.920 - 02:05:31.760]: And to your knowledge, anybody on the NSC staff that needed access to the transcript for their official duties always was able to access it, correct, people that had a need to know and I need to access it?

TIM MORRISON [02:05:31.760 - 02:05:34.120]: Once it was moved to the compartmented system?

STEVE CASTOR [02:05:34.120 - 02:05:34.320]: Yeah.

TIM MORRISON [02:05:34.320 - 02:05:34.640]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:05:34.640 - 02:05:37.880]: Okay. The member con of the July 25 call was in your experience prepared normally?

TIM MORRISON [02:05:37.880 - 02:05:38.080]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:05:38.080 - 02:05:41.880]: That there isn't an exact transcription of what's said on the call, correct?

TIM MORRISON [02:05:41.880 - 02:05:42.280]: Correct.

STEVE CASTOR [02:05:42.280 - 02:05:49.800]: That there's notetakers and situation room and then they prepare a draft and it's circulated among relevant parties?

TIM MORRISON [02:05:49.800 - 02:05:50.840]: Essentially.

STEVE CASTOR [02:05:50.840 - 02:05:54.440]: And you had response belief or coordinating any edits?

TIM MORRISON [02:05:54.440 - 02:06:04.280]: Yes. We -- we look at the -- the, you know, shorthand, we'll call it a transcript, but that memorandum of conversation and we made sure that that transcription is as close to accurate as possible given our requirements under the Presidential Records Act.

STEVE CASTOR [02:06:04.280 - 02:06:05.920]: Okay. And Colonel Vindman testified that he thought it was very accurate. Did you as well?

TIM MORRISON [02:06:05.920 - 02:06:08.200]: I -- I viewed it as complete and accurate.

STEVE CASTOR [02:06:08.200 - 02:06:29.440]: Okay. Colonel the men did articulate that he -- he had a couple of edits he wanted charisma inserted I think it was on page 3 or four. In place of the company in one of the sections where President Zelensky was talking. Are you aware of that edit request?

TIM MORRISON [02:06:29.440 - 02:06:36.560]: I understand that he said in either this proceeding or the deposition that he wanted that request. Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:06:36.560 - 02:06:42.320]: Okay. At the time, did you understand that he had asked for that?

TIM MORRISON [02:06:42.320 - 02:06:59.280]: I don't recall that area it was my practice if in edit was -- if I've believed an edit accurately represented the call, I would accept it. If I didn't hear it in the call, if it didn't exist in my notes, I wouldn't have made the edit.

STEVE CASTOR [02:06:59.280 - 02:07:16.440]: Yeah, he just, on page 4, he wanted to swap out the word company for Burisma. And when that edit from Colonel Vindman was not installed, that he give you any negative feedback that it was crucial that that edit get in the document?

TIM MORRISON [02:07:16.440 - 02:07:18.280]: Not that I can recall.

STEVE CASTOR [02:07:18.280 - 02:07:23.720]: Okay. Did he ever raise any concerns to you about the accuracy of the transcript?

TIM MORRISON [02:07:23.720 - 02:07:24.600]: Not that I can recall.

STEVE CASTOR [02:07:24.600 - 02:07:28.000]: Did he ever raise any concerns to you generally about the call?

TIM MORRISON [02:07:28.000 - 02:07:42.800]: When we were discussing the -- the track changes version of the Mem-Con, I believe he -- he had some concerns about the call. I believe we both agreed we wanted that more full throated embrace of President Zelensky and his reform agenda and we didn't get it.

STEVE CASTOR [02:07:42.800 - 02:07:51.400]: Okay. You indicated in your deposition that when you took over the portfolio for Doctor Hill July 15, you were alerted to potential issues in Colonel Vindman's judgment.

TIM MORRISON [02:07:51.400 - 02:07:51.880]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:07:51.880 - 02:07:55.560]: Did -- did she really anything specific to -- specifically to you, why she thought that?

TIM MORRISON [02:07:55.560 - 02:08:02.160]: Not -- not as such. It was more of an overarching statement from her and her deputy became my deputy that they had concerns about judgment.

STEVE CASTOR [02:08:02.160 - 02:08:06.000]: Okay. Did -- did any other NSC personnel raise concerns with you about Mr. Vindman?

TIM MORRISON [02:08:06.000 - 02:08:06.240]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:08:06.240 - 02:08:12.320]: I'm sorry, Colonel Vindman. And what were some of those concerns that were brought to your attention?

TIM MORRISON [02:08:12.320 - 02:08:13.200]: They were

UNIDENTIFIED [02:08:13.200 - 02:08:24.080]: I'm sorry. We -- we are not -- I am going to instruct him not to

TIM MORRISON [02:08:24.080 - 02:08:25.120]: Top button.

UNIDENTIFIED [02:08:25.120 - 02:08:36.040]: I am going to instruct him not to answer because I think it is beyond the scope of what you are asking for. These -- these concerns Mr. Castor predated in the involvement with the Ukrainian sector assistance.

STEVE CASTOR [02:08:36.040 - 02:08:44.920]: Well, during the deposition I ask you Mr. Morrison and whether others raised the concern that Colonel Vindman may have leaked information.

TIM MORRISON [02:08:44.920 - 02:08:47.880]: You -- you did

STEVE CASTOR [02:08:47.880 - 02:08:48.320]: And your answer was?

TIM MORRISON [02:08:48.320 - 02:08:50.720]: Others had represented that, yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:08:50.720 - 02:08:56.480]: Okay. And I ask you whether you were concerned Colonel Vindman did not keep you in the loop at all times with -- with his official duties.

TIM MORRISON [02:08:56.480 - 02:08:57.920]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:08:57.920 - 02:09:13.840]: And in fact when he went to the National Security Council lawyers following the July 25 call he did not first come to you, is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [02:09:13.840 - 02:09:14.480]: Correct.

STEVE CASTOR [02:09:14.480 - 02:09:17.680]: And you were his supervisor in the chain of command, correct?

TIM MORRISON [02:09:17.680 - 02:09:18.240]: Correct.

STEVE CASTOR [02:09:18.240 - 02:09:22.760]: And in hindsight did you wish -- wish that he had come to you first before going to the lawyers?

TIM MORRISON [02:09:22.760 - 02:09:23.440]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:09:23.440 - 02:09:24.720]: And why is that?

TIM MORRISON [02:09:24.720 - 02:09:43.480]: One, if -- if he had concerns about something about the content of a call that is something I would have expected to have been notified of. I -- I also think just as a matter of practice since we both went to the lawyers we didn't necessarily both need to and economy of effort may have prevailed.

STEVE CASTOR [02:09:43.480 - 02:09:53.120]: Okay. At any point subsequently did -- did he become frustrated that he felt cut out of some of the Ukraine portfolio?

TIM MORRISON [02:09:53.120 - 02:09:54.040]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:09:54.040 - 02:09:57.200]: And what was the nature of his concerns?

TIM MORRISON [02:09:57.200 - 02:10:13.840]: Well, he -- I think the easiest way to say it is he was concerned with respect to for example the Ukraine trip that he was not -- he did not go. He asked me why it was my practice to have a number of the conversations with Ambassador Taylor one-on-one and there were certain other matters.

STEVE CASTOR [02:10:13.840 - 02:10:19.440]: Okay. And did you ever get the sense that you result his concerns or will did they linger?

TIM MORRISON [02:10:19.440 - 02:10:23.120]: I explained to him my thinking and that was that.

STEVE CASTOR [02:10:23.120 - 02:10:43.600]: Okay. Before my time expires Ambassador Volker I want to turn quickly to the what Ambassador Taylor describes as the irregular channel. He -- he was a participant with you and Ambassador Sondland hundreds of text messages, correct?

KURT VOLKER [02:10:43.600 - 02:10:45.000]: Correct.

STEVE CASTOR [02:10:45.000 - 02:10:52.360]: And so did -- did he ever raise concerns about what was -- what was going on during the time period of the early August time period?

KURT VOLKER [02:10:52.360 - 02:11:11.280]: Only as he saw or reflected in the text messages themselves where he said is this now a linkage or are we doing this? He had a concern about just in general you know Rudy Giuliani which [Inaudible] I think a lot of us had but the -- the issue is what do you do about it, about the role that he is playing and as you know we were in frequent contact, near daily contact throughout this entire..

STEVE CASTOR [02:11:11.280 - 02:11:17.120]: And so did -- did he ever engage you in a one-on-one telephone call to articulate his concerns?

KURT VOLKER [02:11:17.120 - 02:11:33.480]: Not -- we were on many one-on-one telephone calls, he did not raise those concerns that way, no. CASTOR Okay. And this -- I mean you -- you are an experienced diplomat and -- at one point in time Senate confirmed Ambassador Sondland is the ambassador to the European Union, Secretary Perry is a Secretary of energy, certainly not -- it doesn't sound like an irregular bunch.

KURT VOLKER [02:11:33.480 - 02:11:39.960]: Did he ever articulate to you that he thought the three of you working on Ukraine policy was a problem?

KURT VOLKER [02:11:39.960 - 02:11:41.040]: No, he did not.

STEVE CASTOR [02:11:41.040 - 02:11:55.560]: And were use of prize during his testimony when he came in for the deposition when he sort of established these two tracks that one was a regular channel that he was in charge of and the other was they

KURT VOLKER [02:11:55.560 - 02:11:56.000]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:11:56.000 - 02:11:56.480]: [Inaudible]?

KURT VOLKER [02:11:56.480 - 02:12:49.120]: Yes, I -- I -- I don't agree with his characterization of that because I had been in my role for a couple of years. I had been a lead on U.S. Ukraine negotiations and negotiating with Russia and the inter-agency work and the work with our allies and we had a Secretary of energy who was a cabin in official and I think having support from the various U.S. officials for our strengthening our engagement with Ukraine I viewed as a very positive thing and if the concern is not us so much then because we are all U.S. officials but Mayor Giuliani I don't view that as a channel at all because he is not a representative of the U.S. government, he is a private citizen.

KURT VOLKER [02:12:49.120 - 02:12:59.880]: I viewed him as perhaps a useful barometer in understanding what may be helpful communication from the Ukrainian government but not someone in a position to represent the U.S. government at all.

STEVE CASTOR [02:12:59.880 - 02:13:01.200]: Okay, thank you.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:13:01.200 - 02:13:10.720]: Okay. Why don't we take a five or 10 minute break? If I could ask the audience to allow the witnesses to leave the room first. We are in recess.

NOTE [02:13:10.720 - 02:13:11.520]: [A recess is called]

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:13:11.520 - 02:13:22.440]: The committee will come to order. We're now going to proceed to a 15 minute round by either chair of the majority or ranking member of minority. Mr. Goldman, you are recognized for 15 minutes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:13:22.440 - 02:13:56.440]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ambassador Volker, I do want to just correct the record from the first round. You are right to point out -- you asked us a quote that I represented you made in the deposition was your words, and -- and I actually read the wrong part in the quote. What you actually said was it creates a problem, again, where all of the things that we're trying to do to advance the bilateral relationship, strengthen our support for Ukraine, strengthen the positioning against Russia is now getting sucked into a domestic political debate in the U.S., domestic political narrative that overshadows that.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:13:56.440 - 02:14:12.480]: So, I -- you were right to point that out, and I apologize for the -- the mistake. I want to go back to a couple things that you said during the minority's round. Can you repeat again the readout that you got of the July 25th call?

KURT VOLKER [02:14:12.480 - 02:14:44.440]: Yes. I received a readout from both a Ukrainian colleague, Andriy Yermak, as well as from a U.S. person. I don't now remember whether it was my staffer or someone from the embassy or where. And the readout what that it was a good phone call, that it was a congratulatory phone call for the president's win in the parliamentary election, that President Zelensky did reiterate his commitment to fighting corruption and advancing reform in Ukraine, and that President Trump renewed his invitation for President Zelensky to come to the White House.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:14:44.440 - 02:14:51.400]: Okay. And I believe you said that that -- that readout was exactly as you expected the call to go, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [02:14:51.400 - 02:14:54.960]: Exactly. That's what we were trying to tee up.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:14:54.960 - 02:15:15.720]: Okay. I just want to show you once again be July 25th text that you wrote to Andriy Yermak, which was the message that you are relating to him so that he could prepare President Zelensky. And you'll recall this, right, where you said that -- that this was the message. Good lunch, thanks. Heard from White House.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:15:15.720 - 02:15:53.840]: Assuming President Zelensky convinces Trump he will investigate, "get to the bottom of" what happened in 2016, we will nail down date for visit to Washington. That's what -- that's what you expected from the call, right?

KURT VOLKER [02:15:53.840 - 02:16:25.160]: Yeah. I expected that President Zelensky would be convincing in his statements and comments with President Trump that he was exactly that, that he would investigate, get to the bottom of the things that it happened in 2016, and that if he was strong in conveying who he is as a person in doing that, that President Trump would be convinced and -- and renew the invitation to the White House.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:16:25.160 - 02:16:29.360]: Right. But you don't mention corruption in this text, do you?

KURT VOLKER [02:16:29.360 - 02:16:31.000]: This is -- it's -- I paraphrased

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:16:31.000 - 02:16:33.960]: -- The word corruption is not in this text, right?

KURT VOLKER [02:16:33.960 - 02:16:41.760]: The word corruption is not there. Investigating things that have happened in the past that would be corrupt would be investigating corruption.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:16:41.760 - 02:16:58.000]: You say a couple times in your opening statement and you just said it again, that is -- you know, investigating things that happened in the past. You are aware, of course, that most investigations relate to things that happened in the past, right?

KURT VOLKER [02:16:58.000 - 02:16:58.520]: Sure.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:16:58.520 - 02:16:58.880]: Sorry?

KURT VOLKER [02:16:58.880 - 02:16:59.200]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:16:59.200 - 02:17:06.600]: Okay. So, that's -- that doesn't really move the needle, whether it's current or past, in terms of the subject of the

KURT VOLKER [02:17:06.600 - 02:17:07.800]: -- Well, yeah

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:17:07.800 - 02:17:09.520]: -- Investigation

KURT VOLKER [02:17:09.520 - 02:17:10.400]: -- Yeah, the

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:17:10.400 - 02:17:10.920]: -- Right

KURT VOLKER [02:17:10.920 - 02:17:15.080]: -- Subject of the investigation or things that happened in the past.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:17:15.080 - 02:17:26.280]: You also talked a little bit about the meeting that you had on July 26th with President Zelensky and Ambassador Sondland in -- in Kiev, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [02:17:26.280 - 02:17:28.440]: On the 26th we had a

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:17:28.440 - 02:17:29.800]: -- And Ambassador Taylor

KURT VOLKER [02:17:29.800 - 02:17:31.400]: -- Meeting with President Zelensky, yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:17:31.400 - 02:17:39.480]: Okay. And I believe you testified that the topic of investigations did not come up at all, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [02:17:39.480 - 02:17:43.720]: Yeah, I don't recall them coming up, just the general phone call.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:17:43.720 - 02:17:47.920]: You -- you didn't take notes of that call -- of that meeting, right?

KURT VOLKER [02:17:47.920 - 02:17:49.120]: No, I did not.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:17:49.120 - 02:17:51.080]: Right, because you had a

KURT VOLKER [02:17:51.080 - 02:17:53.040]: -- Note taker

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:17:53.040 - 02:17:54.640]: -- There were staffers there to do that.

KURT VOLKER [02:17:54.640 - 02:17:56.040]: Correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:17:56.040 - 02:18:09.280]: And so, if there are two staffers who have -- who took notes of that meeting and testified that the subject of either sensitive topics or investigations came up, are we better off taking their word for it than yours?

KURT VOLKER [02:18:09.280 - 02:18:14.680]: I have no reason to doubt their notes if they were notes taken contemporaneously at the meeting.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:18:14.680 - 02:18:26.560]: Okay. Another witness testified before us, Laura Cooper, about a meeting that she had with you on August 20th. Do you recall having that meeting with her because you didn't mention it in your -- your deposition?

KURT VOLKER [02:18:26.560 - 02:18:27.320]: Yes, I did.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:18:27.320 - 02:18:27.880]: Okay.

KURT VOLKER [02:18:27.880 - 02:18:38.720]: I did mention that I had been making the rounds to weigh in on lifting the hold on security assistance, to do that with all of the interagency players.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:18:38.720 - 02:19:03.600]: Um-hmm. And she recalled with some specificity that meeting, which I believe was also based on her notes, that you described the statement that you were trying to get President Zelensky to make two, and I'll quote what she said, "disavow interference in U.S. elections and commit to the prosecution of individuals involved in election interference." And if he were to agree to do that, she testified, then you thought that it might help to lift the hold on security assistance.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:19:03.600 - 02:19:05.760]: Is that your recollection of the conversation as well?

KURT VOLKER [02:19:05.760 - 02:19:08.080]: Not exactly.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:19:08.080 - 02:19:09.440]: So, how does yours differ?

KURT VOLKER [02:19:09.440 - 02:19:32.920]: I recall talking about the statement that we had discussed earlier, the one that had been in the -- the subject of these exchanges between Mr. Yermak and myself, myself, Ambassador Sondland and Rudy Giuliani, and then back to Yermak. So I discussed that this is an effort we are doing, that this could be helpful in getting a reset of the thinking of the president, the negative view of Ukraine that he had.

KURT VOLKER [02:19:32.920 - 02:19:43.680]: And if we did that, I thought that would also be helpful in un -- unblocking whatever hold there was on security assistance, that if there's this negative presumption about Ukraine, getting the stuff on track would be helpful.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:19:43.680 - 02:19:49.800]: All right. So, that's a different interpretation. But you're -- you don't doubt that what she testified is -- is inaccurate, do you?

KURT VOLKER [02:19:49.800 - 02:19:54.200]: I -- I believe she accurately reflected what she understood from the conversation.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:19:54.200 - 02:20:04.320]: Okay. You testified a little bit about the June 28th conference call that you had with Ambassador Sondland, Ambassador Taylor, I'm not sure if Deputy Secretary Kent was on the line

KURT VOLKER [02:20:04.320 - 02:20:05.200]: -- I don't believe so

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:20:05.200 - 02:20:16.760]: -- And Secretary Perry before you looped in President Zelensky. Am -- am I right about the participants of that, or was Perry -- Secretary Perry not on it?

KURT VOLKER [02:20:16.760 - 02:20:30.120]: Yeah, I am pretty sure that Deputy Assistant Secretary Kent was not on it. I don't remember whether Secretary Perry was on it. And I don't remember whether I stayed on for President Zelensky joining the call or not.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:20:30.120 - 02:20:30.680]: Were there

KURT VOLKER [02:20:30.680 - 02:20:32.440]: -- There were two separate calls over the

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:20:32.440 - 02:20:37.760]: -- Were there any staff members or note takers on the call?

KURT VOLKER [02:20:37.760 - 02:20:39.440]: I don't believe so.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:20:39.440 - 02:20:39.880]: Why?

KURT VOLKER [02:20:39.880 - 02:20:43.960]: We were having a call among ourselves to talk about what were the messages we thought we needed to convey.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:20:43.960 - 02:20:53.880]: And at that point, we've had other testimony from people who did take notes, that there was a discussion about the investigations or what -- what you needed to do -- what President Zelensky needed to do in order to get the White House meeting. Do you recall that?

KURT VOLKER [02:20:53.880 - 02:21:19.400]: I recall seeing that in Ambassador Taylor's testimony, and I believe there may have even been a text message to that effect. And again, it comes down to what are we talking about in terms of these investigations, because what I certainly understood is we're talking about Ukraine looking into and fighting corruption internally and being convincing about this, presenting the new president and the new team as a change in Ukraine.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:21:19.400 - 02:21:26.880]: Well, you understood that the investigations were Burisma and the 2016 election, right?

KURT VOLKER [02:21:26.880 - 02:21:27.160]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:21:27.160 - 02:21:29.960]: Okay. And you interpreted those

KURT VOLKER [02:21:29.960 - 02:21:30.600]: -- Well

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:21:30.600 - 02:21:35.080]: -- To be -- you interpreted those to be okay because in theory they were looking into Ukrainians.

KURT VOLKER [02:21:35.080 - 02:21:35.960]: Correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:21:35.960 - 02:21:44.440]: Okay. But we can agree, can we not, that the investigations, all the investigations that we're talking about here today, were Burisma and the 2016 election?

KURT VOLKER [02:21:44.440 - 02:21:44.880]: Correct.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:21:44.880 - 02:21:59.200]: Okay. Now -- and what you then amended your testimony today to say is that in retrospect, if -- you did not realize that the purpose for Mr. Giuliani and President Trump to want the Burisma investigation was to -- for political benefits in -- in digging up dirt or -- or getting some information on Vice President Biden.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:21:59.200 - 02:22:02.640]: That's what you learned subsequently, right?

KURT VOLKER [02:22:02.640 - 02:22:16.840]: It's correct that I learned about the president's interest in investigating Vice President Biden from the phone call transcript, which came much, much later. From Giuliani, I didn't know that he was actively pursuing this. I did know that he raised this with me directly and I had pushed back on it.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:22:16.840 - 02:22:22.240]: Well, you knew that Ambassador Sondland was pursuing this at the July 10th meeting when he raised these investigations himself.

KURT VOLKER [02:22:22.240 - 02:22:31.400]: Well, again, he didn't specify Biden. He didn't specify Burisma, as I recall, either. I understood it to be a generic comment and something, again, not appropriate for that meeting.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:22:31.400 - 02:22:41.000]: Right. I -- I understand. But -- but Biden wasn't mentioned, but you do agree that when investigations are referenced in this context, it is Burisma and the 2016 election, no?

KURT VOLKER [02:22:41.000 - 02:22:42.400]: Yes, that's what I understand.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:22:42.400 - 02:22:52.560]: Right. And on the July 10th call when Ambassador Sondland raised the investigations, he did that in response to a question from the Ukrainians about the White House meeting, isn't that right?

KURT VOLKER [02:22:52.560 - 02:22:54.440]: Can you repeat the question? I didn't catch that.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:22:54.440 - 02:22:56.760]: When -- you said that Ambassador Sondland mentioned specific investigations at the July 10th meeting in Ambassador

KURT VOLKER [02:22:56.760 - 02:22:57.280]: -- Um-hmm

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:22:57.280 - 02:23:00.800]: -- Bolton's office, and you said that you thought that was inappropriate.

KURT VOLKER [02:23:00.800 - 02:23:01.360]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:23:01.360 - 02:23:04.960]: Didn't you make that comment in response to a question from the Ukrainian officials about when they could schedule the White House meeting?

KURT VOLKER [02:23:04.960 - 02:23:11.640]: That I'm not sure about. I remember the meeting essentially already being over, and then Ambassador Sondland bringing that up.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:23:11.640 - 02:23:21.200]: And in the July 2nd or 3rd meeting in Toronto that you had with President Zelensky, you also mentioned investigations to him

KURT VOLKER [02:23:21.200 - 02:23:21.360]: -- Yes

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:23:21.360 - 02:23:24.040]: -- Right? And again, you were referring to the Burisma and the

KURT VOLKER [02:23:24.040 - 02:23:25.040]: -- I was thinking

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:23:25.040 - 02:23:26.480]: -- 2016

KURT VOLKER [02:23:26.480 - 02:23:28.400]: -- Of Burisma and 2016.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:23:28.400 - 02:23:35.520]: Okay. And you understood that that's what the Ukrainians interpreted references to investigations to be, related to Burisma and the 2016 election?

KURT VOLKER [02:23:35.520 - 02:23:47.000]: I -- I don't know specifically at that time if we had talked to that specifically, Burisma, 2016, with President Zelensky. That was my assumption though, that they would have been thinking that too.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:23:47.000 - 02:23:57.400]: Now Mr. Morrison when did you have that conversation with Fiona Hill about Burisma and the parallel track involving Ambassador -- parallel process rather involving Ambassador Sondland and Rudy Giuliani? Do you recall?

TIM MORRISON [02:23:57.400 - 02:24:00.560]: We had a number of handoff discussions between one July and 15 July.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:24:00.560 - 02:24:10.960]: So in that period of time you were certainly aware of this effort to promote this Burisma investigation that Ambassador Sondland and Rudy Giuliani were going about or at least you had heard about it from Dr. Hill?

TIM MORRISON [02:24:10.960 - 02:24:13.360]: I -- I had heard about it from Doctor Hill.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:24:13.360 - 02:24:36.240]: Okay. I want to pull up another excerpt from a recent Wall Street Journal article that quotes in email from July 13 that Ambassador Sondland sent to you and he wrote to you quote sole purpose is for Zelensky to give POTUS assurances of new sheriff in town, corruption -- corruption ending, unbundling moving forward and any hampered investigations will be allowed to move forward transparently and you responded tracking.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:24:36.240 - 02:24:47.440]: What did you understand Ambassador Sondland to Maine when he wrote to you any hampered investigations will be allowed to move forward transparently?

TIM MORRISON [02:24:47.440 - 02:25:05.800]: I -- I don't know that I have any understanding. These were emails -- July 13 emails. I wasn't even in the seat yet. But I knew that among the head of state meetings we were attempting to schedule was one between the President and President Zelensky.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:25:05.800 - 02:25:14.760]: Right. But -- but it was before this that Doctor Hill had told you about Burisma and Ambassador Sondland in particular his desire for this parallel process to investigate Burisma, right?

TIM MORRISON [02:25:14.760 - 02:25:15.120]: Yes.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:25:15.120 - 02:25:19.040]: So you had that association when you received his email asking you about investigations, correct?

TIM MORRISON [02:25:19.040 - 02:25:20.600]: Not necessarily.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:25:20.600 - 02:25:21.320]: Low?

TIM MORRISON [02:25:21.320 - 02:25:21.480]: No.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:25:21.480 - 02:25:22.080]: Why not?

TIM MORRISON [02:25:22.080 - 02:25:39.280]: Because Ambassador -- of among the discussions I had with Doctor Hill were about Ambassador Sondland I think she might have coined it the Gordon problem and I decided to keep track of what Ambassador Sondland was doing. I didn't necessarily always act on things Gordon suggested he believed were important.

TIM MORRISON [02:25:39.280 - 02:25:48.680]: So he wanted to get a meeting, I understood that the President wanted to do and had agreed to a meeting and so I was working -- I -- I was tracking that we needed to schedule a meeting.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:25:48.680 - 02:25:55.880]: You were not endorsing the notion of President Zelensky sending a message about investigations? Is that your testimony?

TIM MORRISON [02:25:55.880 - 02:25:57.720]: That -- that is my testimony.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:25:57.720 - 02:26:02.320]: Ambassador Volker I want to jump ahead. After the aid was released you went to the press conference, right, in -- in Ukraine?

KURT VOLKER [02:26:02.320 - 02:26:02.760]: [Inaudible]

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:26:02.760 - 02:26:18.800]: And are you aware that Ambassador Taylor who testified based on quite detailed notes indicated that earlier, a few days before that Ambassador Sondland had told him that President Trump is a businessman and so before he writes a check the lights to see people pay up, something to that effect. Are you -- you are aware of that?

KURT VOLKER [02:26:18.800 - 02:26:19.920]: I am familiar with that testimony.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:26:19.920 - 02:26:27.400]: And you are also familiar that Ambassador Taylor said that you said something very similar to him when you were in Ukraine for the [Inaudible] conference. Do you recall saying that to Ambassador Taylor?

KURT VOLKER [02:26:27.400 - 02:26:35.800]: Yes, I do. I was repeating what Gordon Sondland had said to me to explain to Bill Taylor what that understanding was.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:26:35.800 - 02:26:39.360]: And in what context did Ambassador Sondland say that to you?

KURT VOLKER [02:26:39.360 - 02:26:58.920]: I think we were talking about the release of the hold on security assistance and he was saying that the President has -- he sees he has already got a negative view of Ukraine, he sees a check on his desk that is going to the Ukrainians, not sure about them so he wants to hold onto it until he is assured.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:26:58.920 - 02:27:06.720]: Right. And the pay up before he writes the check is to get the investigations that he wants, isn't that right?

KURT VOLKER [02:27:06.720 - 02:27:08.360]: That was not clear to me.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:27:08.360 - 02:27:09.880]: What did you think it meant?

KURT VOLKER [02:27:09.880 - 02:27:26.680]: I didn't think that there was a pay of as you -- as we said, the language was similar, I had heard from Gordon that he sees this check, he is not sure he -- he wants to make sure that he's got a deal with the Ukrainians. I didn't know specifically other than this, the generic formulation.

DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:27:26.680 - 02:27:28.840]: Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:27:28.840 - 02:27:30.120]: 15 minutes to Ranking Member Nunes.

DEVIN NUNES [02:27:30.120 - 02:27:35.960]: Parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chair. Do you expect in the more of these magical 15 minute motions that you come up with in the back?

DEVIN NUNES [02:27:35.960 - 02:27:50.600]: I don't know how magical they are, they are prescribed by House resolution 660 that we can have successive rounds of up to 45 minutes so this is part of the prescribed procedure under the house resolution.

DEVIN NUNES [02:27:50.600 - 02:27:55.560]: Do you expect you are going to have more this evening

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:27:55.560 - 02:27:58.680]: I do not -- I do not

DEVIN NUNES [02:27:58.680 - 02:28:00.600]: -- or is this your last?

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:28:00.600 - 02:28:02.520]: I do not expect will be necessary.

DEVIN NUNES [02:28:02.520 - 02:28:34.000]: I think the gentleman. So for every one watching this is another example of how out of control this process has become where the Democrats just magically give themselves additional minutes which they are right, in the little special role that they wrote they can do but you would at least think that they would have the decency to just tell us that you are going to have 15 minutes more and I would say that you can go for hours, we can go five hours, we will give you all you want, you can keep digging if you want.

DEVIN NUNES [02:28:34.000 - 02:29:13.280]: The deeper the whole you dig I think the more viewers will turn off because people just aren't buying the drug deal that you guys are trying to sell. I would add that since we are getting into prime time these are two witnesses that were your witnesses that you called in to depose. The -- we still ask for witnesses that you did not depose including the whistleblower who you and others claim not to know which we still need to get to the bottom of that because it is the most important material fact witness to how this whole mess began in the first place.

DEVIN NUNES [02:29:13.280 - 02:29:39.160]: Secondly, we have asked for the DNC operatives that were working with Ukrainians to dig up dirt for what you call or what the left calls conspiracy theories which they are right, they are conspiracy theories entered that they have dug up to spend their own conspiracy there is to attack the drum campaign and the 2016 election.

DEVIN NUNES [02:29:39.160 - 02:29:45.720]: So I have no more questions for these witnesses. I know our members do. Mr. Castor, you have a little bit of cleanup here.

STEVE CASTOR [02:29:45.720 - 02:30:08.360]: Thank you, Mr. Nunes. I -- I will try to be quick and field some time back so we don't have to use every last-minute. Ambassador Volker, are you aware of a statement just last week from foreign minister [Inaudible] about the -- he said that no one ever told the Ukrainians, certainly not him that there was any linkage between these security assistance funds and investigations?

KURT VOLKER [02:30:08.360 - 02:30:10.280]: I had saw that statement, yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:30:10.280 - 02:30:11.960]: And do you know the foreign minister?

KURT VOLKER [02:30:11.960 - 02:30:12.560]: I do.

STEVE CASTOR [02:30:12.560 - 02:30:17.680]: And during times relevant did you ever have any discussions with him about the investigations and links to

KURT VOLKER [02:30:17.680 - 02:30:39.120]: Not about investigations with him. I believe I kept that discussion to being with Mr. Yermak and we did discuss with the foreign minister [Inaudible] and at the time his diplomatic advisor security assistance after it was raised after August 29 that I discuss that with him.

STEVE CASTOR [02:30:39.120 - 02:30:43.160]: You -- you -- the primary person you worked with was Mr. Yermak?

KURT VOLKER [02:30:43.160 - 02:30:43.720]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:30:43.720 - 02:30:54.960]: And Mr. Yermak also have some meetings with Ambassador Sondland. Did he ever give -- did Mr. Yermak ever give you any feedback from his interactions with Ambassador Sondland?

KURT VOLKER [02:30:54.960 - 02:31:01.160]: I can't say whether he did or didn't. We were in frequent contact and we were just talking about the issues as we went along.

STEVE CASTOR [02:31:01.160 - 02:31:08.960]: The episode at Warsaw where apparently Ambassador Sondland pulled Mr. Yermak aside did -- did he give you -- did Mr. Yermak give you any feedback on that meeting?

KURT VOLKER [02:31:08.960 - 02:31:38.080]: I did not get anything specific after that. This was around I believe September 1 or two and it was at that time that I had been I think texted by Mr. Yermak and was subsequently in touch with him and [Inaudible] where I told them both and also the defense minister I told them all don't worry, we know about this, we are trying to fix it and I think I left the conversation at that.

STEVE CASTOR [02:31:38.080 - 02:31:40.000]: And those Ukrainian officials to the best of your knowledge they trusted you?

KURT VOLKER [02:31:40.000 - 02:31:43.400]: Very much so. We had a very close relationship.

STEVE CASTOR [02:31:43.400 - 02:31:49.440]: And so when you made statements like that to them do you think they believed to?

KURT VOLKER [02:31:49.440 - 02:31:59.520]: I think they believe me. I think they would also have other conversations and they would hear things from other people but I also think they knew that I was sincere with them.

STEVE CASTOR [02:31:59.520 - 02:32:01.240]: And they also trusted Ambassador Taylor?

KURT VOLKER [02:32:01.240 - 02:32:01.360]: Yes.

STEVE CASTOR [02:32:01.360 - 02:32:07.280]: I would just like to demystify a little bit of the Mayor Giuliani role here. You -- you met with him I believe one time?

KURT VOLKER [02:32:07.280 - 02:32:08.200]: That is correct.

STEVE CASTOR [02:32:08.200 - 02:32:11.520]: And you had some -- you exchanged some text messages with him, correct?

KURT VOLKER [02:32:11.520 - 02:32:16.320]: Yes, between I guess it was 10 July and the around 13 August.

STEVE CASTOR [02:32:16.320 - 02:32:36.880]: And during your deposition we sort of did and accounting of your communications with Mr. Giuliani and did wasn't that there weren't that many, we sort of accounted for them all and then Ambassador Sondland when he came in he -- he didn't have you know he didn't have any one-on-one meetings with Mayor Giuliani to your knowledge?

STEVE CASTOR [02:32:36.880 - 02:32:37.080]: Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [02:32:37.080 - 02:32:40.640]: I don't believe he did but I don't know.

STEVE CASTOR [02:32:40.640 - 02:32:50.680]: And in fact I think Ambassador Sondland testified that there were a couple of conference calls that he may have been on with you.

KURT VOLKER [02:32:50.680 - 02:32:52.880]: That is true.

STEVE CASTOR [02:32:52.880 - 02:33:10.280]: Okay. The -- just getting back to the irregular channel that Ambassador Taylor coined in his deposition testimony did -- did you ever have an opportunity to sort of close the loop with him about any concerns whatsoever or was it all just the specific instances raised in the text?

KURT VOLKER [02:33:10.280 - 02:33:23.040]: It is only those specific instances. Do you think Ambassador Taylor in your communications with him believe that Mr. Giuliani was in far greater communication with yourself, Secretary Perry and Ambassador Sondland?

KURT VOLKER [02:33:23.040 - 02:33:24.400]: I don't know what he thought.

STEVE CASTOR [02:33:24.400 - 02:33:29.760]: Okay. That is all I have, Mr. Nunes, do you

DEVIN NUNES [02:33:29.760 - 02:33:34.160]: I have nothing more. With the gentleman allow us to use our magic minutes to yield to one of our members who would like to go?

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:33:34.160 - 02:33:36.960]: The house rules don't permit fact, Mr. Nunes.

DEVIN NUNES [02:33:36.960 - 02:33:37.560]: I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:33:37.560 - 02:33:59.000]: We'll now go to five minute member questions. I recognize myself for five minutes. Ambassador Volker, I want to ask you about something in your opening statement with respect to the July 10 meeting. You testify "I participated in the July tent meeting between National Security Advisor Bolton and then Ukrainian Chairman of the National Security and Defense Counsel Olek Danyliuk.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:33:59.000 - 02:34:25.240]: As I remember, the meeting was essentially over when Ambassador Sondland made a generic comment about investigations. I think all of us thought it was inappropriate. Conversation did not continue in the meeting concluded." Ambassador Volker, we asked you about that meeting during your deposition and you told us nothing about this.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:34:25.240 - 02:34:43.280]: I believe we asked you about why the meeting came to an end and why you had earlier indicated I think to Ambassador Taylor that it did not go well and your answer was that Danyliuk was in the weeds on national security policy. Why didn't you tell us about this?

KURT VOLKER [02:34:43.280 - 02:35:03.960]: Because that's what I remembered from the meeting what I -- what I provided in my October 3 statement. As I said, I've learned other things, including seeing the statements from Alex Vindman and from Fiona Hill, and that reminded me that yes, at the very end of that meeting, as it was recounted in Colonel Vindman's statement, I did remember that.

KURT VOLKER [02:35:03.960 - 02:35:14.080]: That yes, that's right, Gordon did bring that up and that was it.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:35:14.080 - 02:35:33.680]: So at the time we deposed you, and I think we were there for six, seven, or eight hours and we were asking you specifically about what you knew about these investigations, you didn't remember that Gordon Sondland had brought this up in the July 10 meeting with Ukrainians and ambassador Bolton called an end to the meeting?

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:35:33.680 - 02:35:42.360]: Ambassador Bolton described that meeting as some drug deal that Sondland and Mulvaney cooked up. You had no recollection of that?

KURT VOLKER [02:35:42.360 - 02:36:08.360]: Right. So on terms of Gordon bringing it up, no, I did not remember that at the time of my October 3 testimony. I read the account by Alex and that jogged my memory. I said yes, that's right. That did happen. I do not still to this point recall it being an abrupt end to the meeting. The meeting was essentially over and we got up, we went out to the little circle in front of the White House, we took a photograph.

KURT VOLKER [02:36:08.360 - 02:36:10.600]: It did not strike me as abrupt.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:36:10.600 - 02:36:36.640]: Now, Ambassador Volker, you said in your written testimony today I think all of us thought it was inappropriate. Now, if as you say, Ambassador Sondland only mention investigations in the Bolton meeting and you don't recall hearing him being more specific, although others have testified that he was in the wardroom, why did you think it was an appropriate?

KURT VOLKER [02:36:36.640 - 02:37:04.360]: Yeah, I thought it was, I'll put it this way, that something of an eye roll moment where you have a meeting, you're trying to advance the substance of the bilateral elation ship. We have the head of the national security and defense counsel. It was a double disappointing meeting because I don't think that the Ukrainians got as much out of that in terms of their presentation as they could have, and then this comes up at the very end of the meeting.

KURT VOLKER [02:37:04.360 - 02:37:07.120]: It's like this is -- this is not what we should be talking about.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:37:07.120 - 02:37:31.040]: But ambassador, you've said that you think it was appropriate to ask the Ukrainians to do investigations of 2016 and Burisma as long as Burisma didn't mean the Bidens, something you have now I think -- I understand you should have seen otherwise, but nonetheless, it if it was appropriate, why are you saying today that all of us thought it was inappropriate?

KURT VOLKER [02:37:31.040 - 02:37:54.920]: Yeah, because it was not the place or the time to bring up that. This was a meeting between national security advisor and that chairman of the national security and defense counsel. The first high level meeting we are having between Ukraine and the United States after President Zelensky's election.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:37:54.920 - 02:38:02.280]: Is part of the reason it was inappropriate also that it was brought up in the context of trying to get the White House meeting?

KURT VOLKER [02:38:02.280 - 02:38:17.320]: Possibly, although I don't recall that being -- I know this was the Council's question. I don't remember the exact context of when that came up. I viewed the meeting as essentially having ended.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:38:17.320 - 02:38:34.560]: I think you've said in your updated testimony that you do think it's inappropriate and objectionable to seek to get a foreign government to investigate a political rival. Am I right?

KURT VOLKER [02:38:34.560 - 02:38:47.160]: To investigate the Vice President of the United States or someone who is a U.S. official. I don't think we should be asking foreign governments to do that. I would also say that's true of a political rival.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:38:47.160 - 02:38:57.120]: And you recognized when you got the call record when you finally did see the call record that's what took place in that call, correct?

KURT VOLKER [02:38:57.120 - 02:38:59.120]: That's correct.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:38:59.120 - 02:39:17.320]: Mr. Morrison, Ambassador Volker thinks it's inappropriate to ask a foreign head of state to investigate the U.S. person, let alone a political rival, but you said you had no concern with that. Do you think that's appropriate?

TIM MORRISON [02:39:17.320 - 02:39:20.400]: As a hypothetical matter, I do not.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:39:20.400 - 02:39:35.560]: Well, I'm not talking about a hypothetical matter. Read the transcript. In that transcript, does the president not ask Zelensky to look into the Bidens?

TIM MORRISON [02:39:35.560 - 02:39:46.360]: Mr. Chairman, I can only tell you what I was thinking at the time. That is not what I understood the president to be doing.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:39:46.360 - 02:39:55.200]: But nonetheless, this was the first and only time where you wind from listening to a presidential call directly to the national security lawyer, is it not?

TIM MORRISON [02:39:55.200 - 02:39:58.440]: Yes, that's correct.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:39:58.440 - 02:40:05.760]: And I think you've said that your concern was not that it was unlawful but that it might leak, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [02:40:05.760 - 02:40:07.040]: That is correct.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:40:07.040 - 02:40:19.000]: Now the -- the problem with it leaking is that what would be leaking is a president asking a foreign head of state to investigate Mr. Biden, isn't that the problem?

TIM MORRISON [02:40:19.000 - 02:40:29.720]: Well, I believe I stated I had sort of three concerns about what the impact of the call leaking might be.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:40:29.720 - 02:40:33.640]: Well, if it was a perfect call, would you have had a concern of it leaking?

TIM MORRISON [02:40:33.640 - 02:40:38.760]: No. Well, no, I would still have a concern about it leaking.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:40:38.760 - 02:40:53.840]: Okay. And would you have thought it was appropriate if President Trump had asked Zelensky to investigate John Kasich or to investigate Nancy Pelosi or to investigate Ambassador Volker? That be appropriate?

TIM MORRISON [02:40:53.840 - 02:40:57.440]: In those hypothetical cases, no. Not appropriate.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:40:57.440 - 02:41:00.360]: But you're not sure about Joe Biden?

TIM MORRISON [02:41:00.360 - 02:41:09.240]: Sir, again, I can only speak what I understood at the time, and why I acted the way I did at the time.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:41:09.240 - 02:41:25.240]: Finally, my colleagues asked about well, doesn't aid get held up for all kinds of reasons? Ambassador Volker, have you ever seen military aid held up because a president wanted his rival investigated?

KURT VOLKER [02:41:25.240 - 02:41:27.720]: No, I have not seen that.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:41:27.720 - 02:41:30.040]: Have you ever seen that, Mr. Williams? Mr. Morrison, I'm sorry.

TIM MORRISON [02:41:30.040 - 02:41:31.520]: No, chairman.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:41:31.520 - 02:41:33.280]: I yield to the ranking member.

DEVIN NUNES [02:41:33.280 - 02:41:35.800]: So you took two additional minutes. Are you giving our side seven minutes?

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:41:35.800 - 02:41:38.040]: Of course.

DEVIN NUNES [02:41:38.040 - 02:41:42.920]: I recognize Mr. Turner.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:41:42.920 - 02:42:21.400]: Thank you. Ambassador Volker, Mr. Morrison, good to see you again. I appreciate your service to your country and your service and government. Our country is safer today because of the work of both of you men. I want you to know that during all the testimony that we had, no one has ever alleged that either of you have done anything appropriate or improper and everyone has spoken of both of you as having a high level of professionalism and a high degree of ethical standards.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:42:21.400 - 02:42:44.520]: Ambassador Volker, I appreciated in your opening statement your comments of your work to focus on Russia as an invasion of Ukraine and occupation and your work on legal defense of arms that would include the Javelins, would it not, Ambassador Volker?

KURT VOLKER [02:42:44.520 - 02:42:48.720]: Yes, that's right.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:42:48.720 - 02:42:52.240]: And that made a big difference to the Ukraine, did it not?

KURT VOLKER [02:42:52.240 - 02:42:52.800]: Very big difference.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:42:52.800 - 02:42:59.760]: Mr. Morrison, would you speak to -- tell us about your military service.

TIM MORRISON [02:42:59.760 - 02:43:05.480]: Mr. Turner, I'm a U.S. naval reserve officer. I -- I'm an intelligence officer.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:43:05.480 - 02:43:07.720]: And where did you go to law school?

TIM MORRISON [02:43:07.720 - 02:43:09.400]: George Washington University.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:43:09.400 - 02:43:36.880]: Now gentlemen, there's been a lot of talk about a lot of people, and were going to have to pick up the pace here because these are like short periods of time that we have now for this portions of questions. A lot of people talking about their perceptions, their beliefs, their feelings even, what they heard and their understandings and their thoughts.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:43:36.880 - 02:44:00.600]: Ambassador Taylor, Mr. Kent, Ambassador Yovanovitch, and Lieutenant Colonel Vindman all had conversations with each other and with other people and all had a bunch of hearsay. But I can assure you this boils down to just one thing. This is an impeachment inquiry concerning the president of the United States.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:44:00.600 - 02:44:41.280]: So the only thing that matters besides all these people talking to each other and all their feelings and all of their thoughts and understandings, it really only comes down to what did the president of the United States intend and what did he say, and what did the Ukrainians understand or hear? Ambassador Volker, you're one of the first people that we've had in these open public testimony that's had conversations with both.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:44:41.280 - 02:44:57.840]: So I get to ask you. You had a meeting with the president of the United States and you believed that the policy issues that he raised concerning Ukraine were valid, correct?

KURT VOLKER [02:44:57.840 - 02:44:58.280]: Yes.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:44:58.280 - 02:45:12.760]: Did the president of the United States ever say to you that he was not going to allow aid for the United States to go to the Ukraine unless there were investigations into Burisma, the Bidens, or the 2016 elections?

KURT VOLKER [02:45:12.760 - 02:45:16.080]: No, he did not.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:45:16.080 - 02:45:38.640]: Did the Ukrainians ever tell you that they understood that they would not get a meeting with the president of the United States, a phone call with the president of the United States, military aide, or foreign aid from the United States unless they undertook investigations of charisma, the Bidens, and the 2016 elections?

KURT VOLKER [02:45:38.640 - 02:45:40.240]: No, they did not. Turner

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:45:40.240 - 02:46:11.240]: You know, pretty much, Ambassador Volker, you just, like, took apart their entire case. I mean, if the president of the United States does not believe or intended and that Ukrainians don't understand it, and you're the only one who actually stands in between them. Now I ask you, Ambassador Volker, you know, the three amigos thing or whatever that they're trying to disparage you with, you're not part of an irregular channel, right question mark Ambassador Volker?

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:46:11.240 - 02:46:13.080]: Aren't you the official channel?

KURT VOLKER [02:46:13.080 - 02:46:13.440]: That is correct.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:46:13.440 - 02:46:16.800]: Explain that. Explain how you're the official channel and not an irregular channel.

KURT VOLKER [02:46:16.800 - 02:46:37.080]: So I was appointed by Secretary of State Secretary Tillerson in July 2017 to be that U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations. That's a role that's different from Assistant Secretary of State or at different from ambassador in Ukraine. That role is particularly focused on the diplomatic activities surrounding the efforts that reverse Russia's invasion and occupation of Ukraine.

KURT VOLKER [02:46:37.080 - 02:46:52.160]: It is Minsk agreement implementation, it is the Normandy process with France and Germany, it is support for NATO, it is support for sanctions from the European Union, it's the OSCE and the monitoring missions. It is the efforts of individual allies like Poland, like the UK, like Canada that are supporting Ukraine.

KURT VOLKER [02:46:52.160 - 02:46:54.920]: It is work at a senior level in the interagency with Secretary of Defense

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:46:54.920 - 02:46:56.280]: -- Great description. I'm going to cut you off there.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:46:56.280 - 02:47:19.920]: Ambassador Volker, you are also one of the few people who had actually spoken to Giuliani, the so-called irregular channel. Again, all these other people had feelings and understandings about what Giuliani was doing. Did Giuliani ever tell you that United States aid or a meeting with the president of the United States would not occur for the Ukrainians until they agreed to an investigation of Burisma, the Bidens, or the 2016 election?

KURT VOLKER [02:47:19.920 - 02:47:22.400]: Yeah, everything I heard from Giuliani I took to be his opinion.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:47:22.400 - 02:47:23.000]: Excellent.

KURT VOLKER [02:47:23.000 - 02:47:23.840]: It was not guidance.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:47:23.840 - 02:47:39.200]: So -- so, I would assume then that the Ukrainians never told you that -- that Giuliani had told them that in order to get a meeting with the president, a phone call with the president, military aid, or -- or foreign aid from the United States that they would have to do these investigations.

KURT VOLKER [02:47:39.200 - 02:47:39.440]: No.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:47:39.440 - 02:47:56.240]: All right. Okay. Mr. Morrison, you testified that you spoke to Ambassador Sondland and he told you of a conversation that he had with the president of the United States. On the -- on page 128 of his testimony, he relates the content of a conversation that he had with the president, and he was asked about it. It's the only one he relates.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:47:56.240 - 02:48:15.720]: And he said in your -- and he said I did -- he was asked whether or not there was a quid pro quo. He said I didn't frame the question basically to the president that way as a link. I did not frame the question that way. I asked the open-ended question what do you want. This is Mr. Sondland in his testimony, asking this question to the president of the United States.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:48:15.720 - 02:48:42.520]: And this is what he reports, that the president of the United States, he said, I want nothing. I don't want to give them anything. I don't want anything from them. I want Zelensky to do the right thing. That's what he -- and he kept repeating no quid pro quo over and over again. Mr. Morrison, do you have any reason to believe that Mr. Sondland is not telling the truth as the content of his conversation with the president of the United States?

TIM MORRISON [02:48:42.520 - 02:48:43.800]: No, Congressman.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:48:43.800 - 02:48:58.480]: Now, do either of you have any information or evidence that anyone who has testified before this committee either in the secret dungeon testimonies that have been released or in these open testimonies has perjured themselves or has lied to this committee?

KURT VOLKER [02:48:58.480 - 02:49:00.080]: I have no reason to think that.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:49:00.080 - 02:49:00.800]: Mr. Morrison?

TIM MORRISON [02:49:00.800 - 02:49:01.640]: No, sir.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:49:01.640 - 02:49:06.160]: Mr. Morrison, Lieutenant Colonel Vindman reported to you -- to you, is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [02:49:06.160 - 02:49:07.080]: He did, sir.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:49:07.080 - 02:49:24.040]: Now, you -- you have a legal background. He said that he listened to the phone call, the phone call which you said you saw nothing that had occurred illegally, and he said that he believed the president of the United States demanded to President Zelensky that these investigations move forward. Do you believe -- because he only was telling us his opinion.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:49:24.040 - 02:49:28.880]: Do you believe in your opinion that the president of the United States demanded that President Zelensky undertake these investigations?

TIM MORRISON [02:49:28.880 - 02:49:29.560]: No, sir.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:49:29.560 - 02:49:37.160]: To both of you, the Ukraine is an aspirant to the EU. Ambassador Sondland is the ambassador to the EU. Is the Ukraine in the ambassador's portfolio? Ambassador Volker?

KURT VOLKER [02:49:37.160 - 02:49:41.400]: Yes, also because the EU's sanctions on Ukraine are incredibly important.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:49:41.400 - 02:49:42.440]: Mr. Morrison?

TIM MORRISON [02:49:42.440 - 02:49:43.600]: I agree, sir.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [02:49:43.600 - 02:49:44.640]: I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:49:44.640 - 02:49:45.960]: Mr. Himes?

JIM HIMES [02:49:45.960 - 02:50:16.440]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony today. President Trump has described his July 25th phone call with President Zelensky as -- as "perfect," and I think he's done that on Twitter not once, not twice, but by my count 11 times. It feels to me like this characterization of perfect is of a piece with the idea that we here in defense of the president's request to the Ukrainians, that that's just normal course of business pursuing anticorruption.

JIM HIMES [02:50:16.440 - 02:50:31.840]: And I've been concern from the start that this is actually not about going after corruption. It is in fact about aiming corruption at the vice president. Mr. Morrison, you listened in on the call in the White House situation room. Did you hear the president mention the company CrowdStrike and the server?

TIM MORRISON [02:50:31.840 - 02:50:34.040]: I believe so, yes, sir.

JIM HIMES [02:50:34.040 - 02:50:36.920]: Did you hear President Trump mention the Bidens?

TIM MORRISON [02:50:36.920 - 02:50:37.920]: Yes, sir.

JIM HIMES [02:50:37.920 - 02:50:41.680]: Did you hear President Trump in the length of that phone call use the word corruption?

TIM MORRISON [02:50:41.680 - 02:50:44.920]: No -- sir, I -- I don't believe he did.

JIM HIMES [02:50:44.920 - 02:50:54.120]: Was the request that Ukraine investigate CrowdStrike and the Bidens consistent with what you understood to be official U.S. policy towards combating corruption in Ukraine?

TIM MORRISON [02:50:54.120 - 02:50:56.920]: Sir, it was the first I heard of much of this.

JIM HIMES [02:50:56.920 - 02:51:05.640]: In fact in your deposition, you testified that you wanted to stay away from what you described as this "bucket" of investigations. Why did you want to stay away from those issues?

TIM MORRISON [02:51:05.640 - 02:51:09.400]: That was what I was advised by Dr. Hill.

JIM HIMES [02:51:09.400 - 02:51:22.000]: You also testified that the president's call was not, and I'm quoting you here, "the full throated endorsement of the Ukraine reform agenda that I was hoping to hear." What did you mean by that?

TIM MORRISON [02:51:22.000 - 02:51:54.200]: Sir, what we -- myself, Colonel Vindman, others, what we prepared in the package we provided the president was background on President Zelensky, background on his positions about reforming Ukraine, reforming its institutions, rooting out corruption. We were hoping -- we recommend that the president very clearly support what President Zelensky had run on in his own election and what his Servant of the People party had run on in its election where it received a majority mandate.

JIM HIMES [02:51:54.200 - 02:51:57.960]: But that didn't come up in the call, did it?

TIM MORRISON [02:51:57.960 - 02:51:59.120]: No, sir.

JIM HIMES [02:51:59.120 - 02:52:14.240]: Do you -- are you aware of any other discussion in which the president actually raised those things with the -- with -- with the new Ukrainian president?

TIM MORRISON [02:52:14.240 - 02:52:16.040]: Corruption reform?

JIM HIMES [02:52:16.040 - 02:52:16.680]: Yes.

TIM MORRISON [02:52:16.680 - 02:52:39.040]: Sir, it's been sometime since I refreshed myself on the discussion that took place at the UN General Assembly, so I -- I hesitate to say did he ever raise it. But he did not raise it at the time of the 25 July phone call.

JIM HIMES [02:52:39.040 - 02:52:58.360]: Okay. Switching gears a little bit, you -- you strike me as a -- as a process guy. And I -- it's nagging at me because you characterized the -- Ambassador Sondland's linking in whatever way it happened of -- of -- of aid to -- to an investigation as the Gordon problem. You said it cause you to roll your eyes.

JIM HIMES [02:52:58.360 - 02:53:41.160]: Ambassador Volker said it was -- everybody in the July 10th meeting thought it was inappropriate. John Bolton characterizes as the drug deal. So, it seems like everybody in the room understands that there's a huge problem here. My understanding is that it would be normal course of business when you have an ambassador out there going rogue, as apparently there was consensus Ambassador Sondland was doing, that either the national security advisor, John Bolton, or the secretary of state might reign them in. Why -- why didn't that happen?

TIM MORRISON [02:53:41.160 - 02:53:50.000]: Sir, I -- I can't speak to that, but I would generally agree that ambassadors work for the secretary of state and the president.

JIM HIMES [02:53:50.000 - 02:54:00.800]: Do you have -- you don't have any idea -- you worked for him. You don't have any idea why John Bolton would characterize what ambassador -- what the ambassador was doing as a drug deal but not rein him in?

TIM MORRISON [02:54:00.800 - 02:54:04.000]: Ambassadors don't work for the national security advisor, sir.

JIM HIMES [02:54:04.000 - 02:54:28.680]: No, but John Bolton's the national security advisor. He presumably spends time with the secretary of state. I'm just puzzled that everybody in the room is, you know, characterizing this as the Gordon problem or inappropriate or a drug deal, and -- and the secretary of state does nothing.

TIM MORRISON [02:54:28.680 - 02:54:32.120]: Sir, I'm sorry. Was there a question?

JIM HIMES [02:54:32.120 - 02:54:35.440]: Well, yeah, just do you have any -- you don't have any insight into that?

TIM MORRISON [02:54:35.440 - 02:54:36.400]: No, sir.

JIM HIMES [02:54:36.400 - 02:54:58.720]: Ambassador Volker, you testified that you were troubled once you read the record of the president's July 25th call. You testified, "that asking the president of Ukraine to work together with the Attorney General to look into this, you can see as it has happened, this becomes explosive in our domestic politics." And in your new testimony, you called this unacceptable.

JIM HIMES [02:54:58.720 - 02:55:05.160]: What specifically in that call to the Ukraine president do you find unacceptable or troubling?

KURT VOLKER [02:55:05.160 - 02:55:07.080]: It is the reference to Vice President Biden.

JIM HIMES [02:55:07.080 - 02:55:09.400]: Thank you I -- I yield back the balance of my time.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:55:09.400 - 02:55:10.680]: Mr. Conaway?

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:55:10.680 - 02:55:51.040]: Thank you Mr. Chairman. This morning we heard much about January -- July 25 call in which the President ask for a favor. At least in Lieutenant Colonel Vindman's mind that was the equivalent to a demand, and ordering, a require men and yet in the last part of the conversation between the two heads of state President Trump talks about a prosecutor that he is particularly in favor of Van would like to see stay there and the Zelensky those says Mr. President know, since we have one the absolute majority in our Parliament the next prosecutor general will be 100 percent my person, my candidate.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:55:51.040 - 02:56:01.240]: Does that -- to either one of you does that sound like a head of state who has been cowed or bullied and is under the thumb of the President of the United States?

KURT VOLKER [02:56:01.240 - 02:56:03.080]: Not at all.

TIM MORRISON [02:56:03.080 - 02:56:05.200]: No, sir.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:56:05.200 - 02:56:48.560]: All right. The impact of the pause that occurred, the 55 day pause in the lethal assistance or the security assistance, none of us have really understood exactly what happened during that time frame. No one knew about it other than internal U.S. folks until late August and so the Russians would not necessarily have known about it, the potential impact that I agree with on Russia's interpretation of our support for Ukraine wasn't known until those last 14 days but the impact on the lethal aid that they already had should Russia had tried to move the line of contact further west with their tanks would -- with the lethal assistance that we had already given been available to them to push back on that?

KURT VOLKER [02:56:48.560 - 02:56:50.120]: Yes, it would.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:56:50.120 - 02:56:51.920]: Mr. Morrison, comments?

TIM MORRISON [02:56:51.920 - 02:57:03.480]: Sir, I -- I agree with that but I would also add the -- the hold as I understood it applied to Ukraine security assistance, UASI, U-A-S-I, and FMF. It did not apply to FMS and the Javelins were provided under FMS.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:57:03.480 - 02:57:21.000]: Okay. So the most lethal weapon that President Trump provided to the Ukrainians that President Obama and his public -- his national policy which he said was available to them should the Russians have pushed their tanks West? The Javelins?

TIM MORRISON [02:57:21.000 - 02:57:23.240]: Yes, sir.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:57:23.240 - 02:57:28.800]: Throughout that process, even with the pause? Even with all of the stuff that was going on?

TIM MORRISON [02:57:28.800 - 02:57:29.880]: Yes, sir.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:57:29.880 - 02:57:53.440]: Okay. Associated Press is reporting that [Inaudible] Ambassador Volker you mentioned in earlier, that the Russians in an act of war took two gunships and a tug and 24 sailors last November and yet the Russians have now given the 24 sailors back in September and the Associated Press is reporting today that they are giving the -- they are giving the gunboats and the tug back.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:57:53.440 - 02:58:00.440]: Does that sound like Ukraine is in net debt being able to negotiate with the Russians because they are wounded in some way by our actions?

KURT VOLKER [02:58:00.440 - 02:58:03.080]: Know, I would -- I would not say that the Ukrainians are inapt.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:58:03.080 - 02:58:23.400]: All right. Thank you, sir. Mr. Chairman I would like as a personal request, request that you and/or one of your lawyer members on the committee that are lawyers to put into the record the federal statute that provides for the absolute immunity, right to we immunity that you have exerted over and over and over.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:58:23.400 - 02:58:55.920]: I don't think it's there but if it is in fact a federal statute and/or a brief that you can cite put that into the record so that we will know that and before you get mad and accuse me of wanting to out the whistleblower -- you get upset every time somebody accuses you personally of knowing who the whistleblower is. I get upset every time you anonymity, excuse me -- anonymity every time you accuse me of simply because I want to know the whistleblower and we want to know what is going on that we want to out that interviewer.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:58:55.920 - 02:59:17.960]: That is unfair for you to make that accusation I and I get just as mad. This is about leveling the playing field between our two teams. Your team knows the whistleblower, they have intimate knowledge of who he or she is, the IGIC -- ICIG even mentioned in to see of biases. Your team fully understands that, our team should fully understand that.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:59:17.960 - 02:59:40.120]: It is simply leveling the playing field and I know that you have overrun my request for a closed-door subpoena, I understand that but I do think it is important that you put into the record the basis on which you continued to assert this absolute right to anonymity. Excuse me, I misspoke earlier, anonymity by the whistleblower.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [02:59:40.120 - 03:00:07.560]: Also the speaker on Jan -- September 23 issued a dear colleague -- that's a document that we all use to talk to each other, it has went to 434 other members of Congress. It was intended to be the truth. It was intended to be straightforward. She says in that dear colleague that the whistleblower has by law is required to testify to the House and the Senate intelligence committees.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [03:00:07.560 - 03:00:39.480]: Now you are defying the Speaker in this regard, I understand that is between you and her but if she is correct then you are defying the law. If on the other hand she misled us into thinking something that was not true then I think you need to tell the speaker that she needs to retract that dear colleague letter, at least set the record straight as the speaker -- is the whistleblower required by law as the speaker said to testify to us or not and what is his absolute right to anonymity that -- that you question.

K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [03:00:39.480 - 03:00:40.760]: With that I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:00:40.760 - 03:00:55.200]: The time of the gentleman has expired. I would be happy to enter into the record the whistleblower statute that allows whistleblower to remain anonymous as well as Ranking Member Nunes prior comments talking about the importance of anonymity of whistleblowers and with that I recognize Ms. Sewell.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:00:55.200 - 03:01:11.960]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ambassador Volker it seems by early July it has become pretty clear that Mr. Giuliani has become a major problem for the U.S. Ukraine relations. You previously testified that on July 2, you met with the Ukrainian President and his aide in Toronto. Is that right?

KURT VOLKER [03:01:11.960 - 03:01:23.200]: I had a bilateral meeting between the U.S. and Ukraine delegations and then a pull aside meeting with the President and his chief of staff.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:01:23.200 - 03:01:33.120]: There are you discuss Mr. Giuliani's quote negative view quote of -- of Ukraine based on a conspiracy theory about the 2016 election, right?

KURT VOLKER [03:01:33.120 - 03:01:41.680]: I conveyed that he was repeating a negative narrative about Ukraine based on accusations of the then prosecutor general Lutsenko.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:01:41.680 - 03:01:45.200]: Are you saying that you didn't think they were negative views?

KURT VOLKER [03:01:45.200 - 03:01:46.240]: No, no, that they were negative views.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:01:46.240 - 03:01:50.680]: Okay. But that wasn't your -- that wasn't your description.

KURT VOLKER [03:01:50.680 - 03:01:54.200]: I'm -- I'm sorry, I lost the question if you could repeat.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:01:54.200 - 03:02:02.000]: Well, I was trying to get at who -- who said the negative views that you discuss negative views.

KURT VOLKER [03:02:02.000 - 03:02:16.200]: So the prosecutor general of Ukraine was putting out this series of conspiracy theories that I believe were self-serving and inaccurate. Mr. Giuliani had repeated these to me so I believe that he was at least affected by those and believe those and was concerned about [Inaudible].

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:02:16.200 - 03:02:18.480]: And believe that they were negative.

KURT VOLKER [03:02:18.480 - 03:02:20.080]: Believe that they were negative

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:02:20.080 - 03:02:20.840]: [Inaudible]

KURT VOLKER [03:02:20.840 - 03:02:22.920]: -- and was conveying them to the President.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:02:22.920 - 03:02:27.600]: So was it problematic that he believed that they were negative views? Was it true?

KURT VOLKER [03:02:27.600 - 03:02:29.880]: Yes, it -- the whole thing was problematic.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:02:29.880 - 03:02:41.720]: Ambassador tailored testified that on July 2, you told Ukrainians that they needed to quote cooperate on investigations". You are now saying that you don't recall that saying those words, is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:02:41.720 - 03:02:47.160]: I don't believe I said the words cooperate on investigations.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:02:47.160 - 03:02:49.240]: Did you say investigations?

KURT VOLKER [03:02:49.240 - 03:02:50.400]: I believe I did, yes.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:02:50.400 - 03:02:53.600]: And what did you mean by investigations?

KURT VOLKER [03:02:53.600 - 03:03:19.960]: I meant Burisma in 2016 was in my mind but I wanted to keep it general and that Ukraine and being convincing to Giuliani and hopefully also to the President that they were serious about fighting corruption would engage in whatever investigations necessary to clean up the country.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:03:19.960 - 03:03:52.440]: Now moving to July 10 Ambassador Volker sent you a text message. You sent a text message to Giuliani and I think it is on the screen now and you said Mr. Mayor, could we meet for coffee or lunch in the next week or so West and Mark I would like to update you on my conversations about Ukraine? I would like -- I think we have an opportunity to get what you need.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:03:52.440 - 03:03:55.000]: Did you say that? Is that inaccurate

KURT VOLKER [03:03:55.000 - 03:03:57.680]: That is an accurate text message.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:03:57.680 - 03:04:01.080]: And what did you mean by what you need?

KURT VOLKER [03:04:01.080 - 03:04:08.160]: Contact with the actual government of Ukraine, the people who are now representing President Zelensky and his team.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:04:08.160 - 03:04:31.800]: Later that day you and Ambassador Sondland met with Ukraine officials at the White House. We heard from several witnesses that Ambassador Sondland told the Ukraine that they needed to cooperate with the quote unquote investigations in order to get the Oval Office meeting scheduled on the books. Were these investigations a part of the official U.S. policy towards Ukraine?

KURT VOLKER [03:04:31.800 - 03:04:39.360]: U.S. policy toward Ukraine was a about fighting corruption and Ukraine going after

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:04:39.360 - 03:04:46.080]: Was it specifically about these kinds of investigations? You said the investigation was Burisma -- okay.

KURT VOLKER [03:04:46.080 - 03:04:59.040]: In order to fight corruption you need to conduct investigations. You need to see what Ukrainian citizens have been up to in doing. So these

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:04:59.040 - 03:05:18.600]: But was that the purpose of that or was it -- or was it because the President -- you knew that the President wanted those investigations to be done as a condition for them to actually have a meeting with -- with the -- and they white -- in the White House?

KURT VOLKER [03:05:18.600 - 03:05:27.480]: Well, first off we have to be clear what we are talking about in terms of the investigations, we are not talking about Vice President Biden, we are not talking about [Inaudible].

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:05:27.480 - 03:05:31.000]: Well, Burisma doesn't -- is not -- has nothing to do with -- you are saying that

KURT VOLKER [03:05:31.000 - 03:05:51.440]: I am saying that whether Ukrainians within the company of Burisma had acted in a corrupt way or sought to buy influence, that is a legitimate thing for Ukraine to investigate and if Ukraine can make a statement about their intentions on fighting corruption domestically that is helpful in order to convince President Trump ultimately that this is [Inaudible].

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:05:51.440 - 03:06:14.960]: With all due respect Ambassador Volker we heard from two witnesses this morning that those investigations were not official U.S. policy. Ambassador Volker, I don't know if you understand what you are getting yourself into but sitting here today I trust you understand that pressuring Ukraine to involve itself in U.S. domestic policy is just simply wrong.

TERRI A. SEWELL [03:06:14.960 - 03:06:17.840]: I yield back the balance of my time.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:06:17.840 - 03:06:18.520]: Mr. Turner.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [03:06:18.520 - 03:06:19.640]: I yield my time to Jim Jordan.

JIM JORDAN [03:06:19.640 - 03:06:27.600]: I think the gentleman. Ambassador Volker, your -- you were the special representative to Ukraine, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [03:06:27.600 - 03:06:28.640]: That is correct.

JIM JORDAN [03:06:28.640 - 03:07:12.760]: And prior to that in your diplomatic service, you worked at the NSC, you were deputy Assistant Secretary of State, you were ambassador to NATO, Senate confirmed ambassador to NATO, and your distinguished diplomatic career. So it may not bother you when you're referred to as the irregular channel, but it bothers representative Turner and it bothers me. You were the special envoy to Ukraine and in that role, you said in your opening statement you were the administration's most outspoken public figure highlighting Russia's invasion and occupation of Ukraine and calling out Russia's responsibility to end the war.

JIM JORDAN [03:07:12.760 - 03:07:14.120]: Is that right?

KURT VOLKER [03:07:14.120 - 03:07:16.080]: That is correct.

JIM JORDAN [03:07:16.080 - 03:07:24.800]: And in that capacity, you strongly advocated for lifting the ban on sale of legal defense of arms to Ukraine. Is that right?

KURT VOLKER [03:07:24.800 - 03:07:25.960]: That is correct.

JIM JORDAN [03:07:25.960 - 03:07:30.240]: And President Trump did it, didn't he?

KURT VOLKER [03:07:30.240 - 03:07:31.360]: That is correct.

JIM JORDAN [03:07:31.360 - 03:07:46.480]: But in spite of that, President Trump was still skeptical of giving our hard earned tax dollars to Ukraine, right?

KURT VOLKER [03:07:46.480 - 03:07:47.040]: Yes.

JIM JORDAN [03:07:47.040 - 03:07:54.840]: You said that in your testimony as well. And that reason he is skeptical is, let's be honest, the guy doesn't like foreign aid, right?

KURT VOLKER [03:07:54.840 - 03:07:59.080]: That's one reason, and then Ukraine's history of corruption is another.

JIM JORDAN [03:07:59.080 - 03:08:34.080]: One of the third most corrupt countries on the planet and Europe isn't doing enough and oh, by the way, in the president's mind, he did think Ukraine was trying to influence the 2016 election because things happened. Democrats want to deny it, but when the ambassador from Ukraine here to the United States writes an op-ed on August 4, 2016 criticizing then ended trump, that is certainly trying to influence the election when [Inaudible], a key minister in their government says all kinds of negative things about candidate Trump, that certainly looks like it's trying to influence the election.

JIM JORDAN [03:08:34.080 - 03:09:00.240]: And when Mr. Lutsenko states in the financial times during the campaign the majority of Ukrainian political figures want Hillary Clinton to win, that probably sticks and a candidates mind. I know we all run campaigns and when people say bad things about us in the course of the campaign, we don't necessarily think great things about them.

JIM JORDAN [03:09:00.240 - 03:09:03.040]: But you were convinced Zelensky was the real deal, right?

KURT VOLKER [03:09:03.040 - 03:09:04.320]: That is correct.

JIM JORDAN [03:09:04.320 - 03:09:24.720]: Because you spend a lot of time with the guy. And guess what question mark when aid was frozen, you knew if you could get these two guys together and it would work out. When aid was frozen, what did you say? You told the Ukrainians. Don't worry about it. Well, you didn't say that. You said don't be alarmed, right?

KURT VOLKER [03:09:24.720 - 03:09:26.200]: Yeah. That is correct.

JIM JORDAN [03:09:26.200 - 03:09:36.720]: And guess what happened? By the time aid -- when aid is frozen and when it's released, all kinds of interactions between President Zelensky and senior U.S. officials, right?

KURT VOLKER [03:09:36.720 - 03:09:38.000]: That's correct.

JIM JORDAN [03:09:38.000 - 03:10:04.760]: It starts with a call. It starts with the call with President Trump and President Zelensky. The next day, you meet with President Zelensky in Ukraine and then we have Ambassador Bolton meeting with him, then we have Vice President Pence meeting with him, then we have U.S. Senators Johnson and Murphy meeting with them.

JIM JORDAN [03:10:04.760 - 03:10:22.520]: And guess what? In none of those meetings, not a single one that security assistance dollars in exchange for an investigation, not once did they come up -- did that -- did that conversation come up. Is that right?

KURT VOLKER [03:10:22.520 - 03:10:23.880]: That is correct.

JIM JORDAN [03:10:23.880 - 03:10:38.200]: Not once. No discussion of aid for investigations, and, as you testified, you never believed aid for investigations was ever being talked about either in any of these conversations.

KURT VOLKER [03:10:38.200 - 03:10:39.160]: That is correct.

JIM JORDAN [03:10:39.160 - 03:11:01.320]: What happened in those meetings? They all became convinced of the same thing you knew. They all saw the same darn thing. This guy was the real deal. He is a legitimate reformer and they all came back. They all came back and told the president. Hey, Mr. President, this guy is real. Go ahead and release the dollars.

JIM JORDAN [03:11:01.320 - 03:11:26.000]: Oh, by the way, in that same timeframe, you know what else happened? Their Parliament, their newly elected parliament, as Mr. Morrison testified to, stayed up all night to pass the reform measures to get rid of the prosecutor, to put in the supreme high anticorruption court, to get rid of this -- this ability, that no one in their Congress in their Parliament could ever be a hit with a crime.

JIM JORDAN [03:11:26.000 - 03:11:36.240]: I mean, that's unbelievable. All that happens and they come back and tell President Trump hey, guess what? Time to release the dollars, and he did it, right?

KURT VOLKER [03:11:36.240 - 03:11:37.640]: The dollars were released.

JIM JORDAN [03:11:37.640 - 03:11:52.320]: Yeah, you did your job. You did your job. And you've got to put up with all this because the Democrats are out to get this president. You did your job just the way Mr. Turner described. You did your job over all these years, all these years and the Democrats put you through this. You have served our country well.

JIM JORDAN [03:11:52.320 - 03:12:16.560]: The kind of -- the kind of diplomat we can we want to serving and here's -- here's the saddest -- one of the saddest things about all this what the Democrats are putting us through, you two guys who are here telling it straight, you both decided you're going to step out of government because of what these guys are doing, and that's that sad thing.

JIM JORDAN [03:12:16.560 - 03:12:38.160]: People like Ambassador Volker and Tim Morrison who have served our country so well are now stepping out of our government because of what these guys are doing. And that's why Mr. Turner got so fired up a few minutes ago and why I'm so fired up to because we appreciate -- we appreciate what you guys did. I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:12:38.160 - 03:12:41.120]: Mr. Carson.

ANDRE CARSON [03:12:41.120 - 03:13:08.760]: Thank you, Chairman Schiff. Ambassador Volker, I want to focus on the press statement that President Trump and Rudy Giuliani wanted Ukraine to make an ounce -- announcing investigations to benefit President Trump. On August 9, sir, Ambassador Sondland and you had this exchange. Investor somnolence says, "Morrison, ready to get dates as soon as Yermak confirms." Your reply, "Excellent.

ANDRE CARSON [03:13:08.760 - 03:13:29.920]: How did you sway him?" An Ambassador Sondland says, "Not sure I did. I think POTUS really wants deliverable." Deliverable here was a public announcement that Ukraine was going to conduct investigations into bereavement and alleged 2016 election interference by Ukraine. Is that correct, sir?

KURT VOLKER [03:13:29.920 - 03:13:36.360]: Thank you. I understood the deliverable to be that statement that we had been talking about.

ANDRE CARSON [03:13:36.360 - 03:13:46.840]: On August 13, UN ambassador Sandlin discussed a draft statement from Ukraine with Mr. Giuliani. Sir, why did you discuss the draft statement with Mr. Giuliani?

KURT VOLKER [03:13:46.840 - 03:14:04.480]: Because the idea of the statement had come up from Mr. Yermak's meeting with Mr. Giuliani. Remember that Mr. Yermak asked me to connect him with Mr. Giuliani. I did. They had a meeting and then they both called me afterwards. Mr. Giuliani said he thought Ukraine should make a statement about fighting corruption.

KURT VOLKER [03:14:04.480 - 03:14:32.680]: Mr. Yermak said and we will say also specifically Burisma in 2016. Mr. Yermak provided me a draft statement and I wanted to be assured that this statement would actually correct the perception that Mr. Giuliani had of Ukraine and what they stand for now so that that would also be conveyed to President Trump and solve this problem that I had observed with our May 23 meeting with the president.

KURT VOLKER [03:14:32.680 - 03:14:38.760]: The problem being that he's getting a bad set of information, a statement like this could potentially correct that.

ANDRE CARSON [03:14:38.760 - 03:14:42.320]: So was Mr. Giuliani satisfied with this statement?

KURT VOLKER [03:14:42.320 - 03:14:43.240]: No, he was not.

ANDRE CARSON [03:14:43.240 - 03:14:43.800]: Why not?

KURT VOLKER [03:14:43.800 - 03:14:52.160]: He believed that it needed to say Burisma and 2016 specifically or else it would not be credible, would not mean anything new.

ANDRE CARSON [03:14:52.160 - 03:15:15.280]: So in fact, Mr. Giuliani wanted a statement that referenced Burisma and the 2016 elections explicitly, one that would benefit, essentially, President Trump. Mr. Ambassador, here's the text you sent to the Ukrainian official on August 13. Let's put that up on the screen. You said, "Hi, Andriy. Good talking.

ANDRE CARSON [03:15:15.280 - 03:15:32.840]: Following is the text with an insert at the end for the two key items." Mr. Ambassador, those two key items were specific references to investigations of Burisma and the 2016 elections, isn't that right, sir?

KURT VOLKER [03:15:32.840 - 03:15:33.640]: That is correct.

ANDRE CARSON [03:15:33.640 - 03:15:37.400]: Did Mr. Giuliani, sir, dictate those two key items to you, sir?

KURT VOLKER [03:15:37.400 - 03:15:58.720]: Well, as you see, I had just had a conversation with Mr. Yermak to describe to him the conversation that we had just had with Mr. Giuliani. Mr. Giuliani said that it would need to include these things for it to be convincing to him. I put them in so we understood what he was talking about and I shared it with Andriy to say this is what he is talking about.

ANDRE CARSON [03:15:58.720 - 03:16:01.520]: And you included them in the proposal to the Ukrainians?

KURT VOLKER [03:16:01.520 - 03:16:07.320]: I put it back in to be clear to the Ukrainians this is what the conversation was.

ANDRE CARSON [03:16:07.320 - 03:16:21.160]: Mr. Ambassador, if you believe that statement that Mr. Giuliani dictated in August was not a good idea, sir, why were the Ukrainians still considering giving an interview with the same themes in September?

KURT VOLKER [03:16:21.160 - 03:16:41.880]: Well, if I may, commerce men, I conveyed this to the Ukrainians in order to be clear so we knew what the conversation was about. This was following up on his prior conversation. The Ukrainians then said they had reasons not to do that and they described those reasons and I agreed with them and we agreed to just scrap the statement.

KURT VOLKER [03:16:41.880 - 03:17:00.080]: From that point on, I didn't have any further conversations about this statement. So I don't know how it came up or why it came up that there would be a possibility of President Zelensky doing an interview with U.S. media later think something like this and in the end, he didn't do that either.

ANDRE CARSON [03:17:00.080 - 03:17:27.920]: Thank you, sir. Mr. Morrison, you said that the president's request during the July 25 call were not consistent with U.S. policy. I emphatically agree with you, sir. Yet, these text messages show that Ambassador Volker spent much of August pressing Ukraine to meet those requests we can only be grateful, I guess, that the president essentially got caught and Congress passed a law to ensure the funding was released to Ukraine before it was too late.

ANDRE CARSON [03:17:27.920 - 03:17:31.040]: I thank you both for your service. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:17:31.040 - 03:17:33.080]: Dr. Wenstrup?

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:17:33.080 - 03:17:59.080]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Both you gentlemen, thank you very much for being -- being here. I want to start, if I can, with you, Mr. Morrison. In discussing the 7/25 phone call and the concerns that Lieutenant Colonel Vindman had, Lieutenant Colonel Vindman came with you with edits for the transcript, and you stated that you accepted all of his edits.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:17:59.080 - 03:17:59.760]: Is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [03:17:59.760 - 03:18:07.160]: I -- I -- I accept -- I would have accepted all of the edits that I believed were -- were faithful to what was actually discussed.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:18:07.160 - 03:18:13.240]: Did he come to you with an edit that said that the word demand should be in there?

TIM MORRISON [03:18:13.240 - 03:18:15.560]: I -- I don't recall that specifically, sir, no.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:18:15.560 - 03:18:21.920]: He -- he didn't either. How soon after the phone call did he meet with you on that particular issue?

TIM MORRISON [03:18:21.920 - 03:18:28.040]: We -- we got the draft, as was normal, fairly quickly after the call, that same day.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:18:28.040 - 03:18:52.160]: That same day. So today he said I reported my concerns to Mr. Eisenberg. It is improper for the president of the United States to demand a foreign government investigate a U.S. citizen and political opponent. Now, he was going to Mr. Eisenberg with his concerns about the conversation, and he did not at any point on the edits say that there should be a demand.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:18:52.160 - 03:19:08.040]: And, you know, he -- he didn't do that, but he did say that he didn't come to you with his concerns because you weren't available. But that same day he came to you with -- with edits. Is that -- was that correct?

TIM MORRISON [03:19:08.040 - 03:19:09.840]: I -- I believe that's generally correct, yes, sir.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:19:09.840 - 03:19:16.320]: Okay. And, well, he said you weren't available. And you didn't hear the president make a demand, did you?

TIM MORRISON [03:19:16.320 - 03:19:17.600]: No, sir.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:19:17.600 - 03:19:44.160]: So, sometime between the call in today, Lieutenant Colonel Vindman must have been hearing some voices and he -- he heard demand at the time, but he didn't hear that day and he didn't make it an issue that day. But today he does. I think that's pretty bizarre. When Lieutenant Colonel Vindman went to legal, Mr. Eisenberg, do you know if he was advised not to speak to you?

TIM MORRISON [03:19:44.160 - 03:19:47.680]: I -- I don't have any firsthand knowledge of that, no, sir.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:19:47.680 - 03:19:50.880]: Do you know if he was advised to contact the IGIC?

TIM MORRISON [03:19:50.880 - 03:19:55.560]: No, sir, I have no firsthand knowledge of that.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:19:55.560 - 03:19:58.680]: So, you don't know what he was advised when he went to legal?

TIM MORRISON [03:19:58.680 - 03:19:59.520]: No, sir, I do not.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:19:59.520 - 03:20:24.200]: Thank you. I appreciate that. Mr. Volker, I -- I want to tell I really enjoyed your opening testimony today, taking us through that. I know it was kind of long, but I thought it was extremely well done and I appreciate it. You talk about letters signed and the -- and sharing concerns about leadership in your assigned country, about agreeing with and sometimes disagreeing with the leadership of your own country when it -- when you felt it was appropriate.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:20:24.200 - 03:20:37.400]: Now, you're the boots on the ground for the administration. Let's face it. You're part of the team that is there to -- to serve the country in -- in that way. And that all to me sounded like the works a very good diplomat, and I want to thank you for that.

KURT VOLKER [03:20:37.400 - 03:20:38.200]: Thank you, sir.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:20:38.200 - 03:21:04.000]: It's true -- it's truly appreciated. And, you know, corruption was a concern legitimately in -- in Ukraine and in many ways. And Mr. Joyner -- Jordan pointed out some of the things that were done by Ukrainians in plain sight. I might use that term, in plain sight, by putting op-eds in our newspapers. And it -- certainly more than one country can be trying to influence our elections.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:21:04.000 - 03:21:04.800]: Would you agree with that?

KURT VOLKER [03:21:04.800 - 03:21:05.320]: I agree with that.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:21:05.320 - 03:21:26.440]: And, you know, we keep hearing that that whole thing about the Ukrainians, that's all been debunked. It was just the Russians. Well, you know, that comes from an IC community that -- some of the people that have come up with those conclusions are some of the very same people that we're going to find out, if we haven't already, were deeply involved with this whole Russian collusion hoax.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:21:26.440 - 03:21:35.000]: But I want to say you did a great job. You vetted Zelensky's intentions, what he intended to be as a president. Would -- would you say that's accurate?

KURT VOLKER [03:21:35.000 - 03:21:42.320]: Yes, that was in fact one of the key objectives of the presidential delegation at the inauguration, to take our own judgment and report back to the president.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:21:42.320 - 03:21:46.440]: And that's what your job should be. And you became comfortable with this president, correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:21:46.440 - 03:21:47.080]: Yes, I did.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:21:47.080 - 03:21:53.040]: And you worked to assure our president that you were comfortable with this president.

KURT VOLKER [03:21:53.040 - 03:21:53.640]: Yes, I did.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:21:53.640 - 03:21:53.760]: Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:21:53.760 - 03:21:54.920]: That's correct.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:21:54.920 - 03:22:08.800]: And in some ways, you have to work sometimes through any means available. And that might include working with Rudy Giuliani if it could be helpful to you to get that message and advice to the president. With that be correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:22:08.800 - 03:22:27.080]: I believe that the messages being conveyed by Mr. Giuliani were a problem because they were -- they were at variance with what our official message to the president was and not conveying that positive assessment that we all had. And so, I thought it was important to try to step in and fix the problem.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:22:27.080 - 03:22:31.480]: And -- and in that, I think you termed that a useful barometer of where things were.

KURT VOLKER [03:22:31.480 - 03:22:32.600]: Yes.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:22:32.600 - 03:22:47.320]: So, those useful barometers I think can come in lot of different fashions, like Dennis Rodman in North Korea or James Taylor in France singing You Got a Friend if they can help the cause and in that situation. It's not illegal. Good job, Ambassador. Thank you very much.

KURT VOLKER [03:22:47.320 - 03:22:47.800]: Thank you, sir.

BRAD WENSTRUP [03:22:47.800 - 03:22:49.800]: I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:22:49.800 - 03:22:52.040]: Ms. Speier?

JACKIE SPEIER [03:22:52.040 - 03:23:35.360]: Mr. Chairman, thank you. And thank you both for your participation here today and for your service. I want to take us out some 30,000 feet for a minute and talk about cover-ups. But for the fact that the whistleblower came forward, we wouldn't know anything about this. But for the fact that the inspector general of the CIA found it to be both urgent and credible, we wouldn't know anything about it. Mr. Morrison, you said that after you heard the call you went directly to the attorneys and the National Security Council and recommended that they be limited access, and they were subsequently put into a special server.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:23:35.360 - 03:24:11.080]: The White House has not released any documents whatsoever to this committee. So, to you, Mr. Volker, thank you. But for the fact that you as a private citizen with your own personal phone and your text messages with Mr. Giuliani and Mr. Sondland and Mr. [Inaudible] and whomever else, but for those text messages that we've been putting up on the screen all day, we would have nothing, nothing, and this cover-up would be complete.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:24:11.080 - 03:24:24.880]: That's something we should think about. Now, on July 19th, you had breakfast with Rudy Giuliani at the Trump Hotel, correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:24:24.880 - 03:24:26.800]: That's correct.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:24:26.800 - 03:24:36.840]: And in that conversation, at one point he brought up Mr. Lutsenko and you said that, whatever Mr. Lutsenko is saying, that's credible. Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:24:36.840 - 03:24:37.520]: Yes.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:24:37.520 - 03:25:09.120]: And then he brought up Mr. Biden. And I'm going to quote you here, "I've known him for a long time. He's a person of integrity," to Giuliani, "simply not credible to me Joe Biden would be influenced in his duties as vice president by money or things for his son or anything like that." Now, we've had many discussions over the last few days about these investigations into Burisma and Biden in the 2016 CrowdStrike server.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:25:09.120 - 03:25:22.960]: And you in that conversation with Mr. Giuliani basically just debunked all of that. Now, at that time, at that breakfast, who else was with you at that breakfast?

KURT VOLKER [03:25:22.960 - 03:25:33.640]: There was someone that Mr. Giuliani brought along. I later learned that this was Lev Parnas, who we've learned a lot about since then.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:25:33.640 - 03:25:50.760]: So, Mr. Lev Parnas was at that breakfast that Mr. Giuliani had with you. And we now know that Mr. Parnas has since been indicted for campaign -- foreign campaign contributions to President Trump's political action committee. Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:25:50.760 - 03:25:52.640]: I have seen that.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:25:52.640 - 03:26:09.240]: All right. On May 23rd, you were in that discussion with the president. And at one point he referred to Zelensky having terrible people around him. Who do you think he was calling terrible people around him?

KURT VOLKER [03:26:09.240 - 03:26:31.840]: There were two people that came to mind. One of them was a former investigative journalist and later a parliamentarian named Serhiy Leshchenko. Serhiy Leshchenko is someone that in many of these stories is -- is seen as bringing forth a black ledger relating to Paul Manafort's activities in Ukraine. That was one person.

KURT VOLKER [03:26:31.840 - 03:26:52.160]: The other person I thought it could refer to was the person who was being named as President Zelensky's chief of presidential administration, Andriy Bohdan. He was known as a lawyer for one of the main oligarchs in Ukraine, Ihor Kolomoyskyi, and there was a lot of controversy at the time about him being appointed to the administration.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:26:52.160 - 03:26:54.800]: Do you call them -- do you think of them is terrible people?

KURT VOLKER [03:26:54.800 - 03:26:57.680]: I don't think either one of them is terrible people, no.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:26:57.680 - 03:27:14.240]: All right. Thank you. Mr. Morrison, earlier in testimony that was elicited from our colleagues on the other side of the aisle, you indicated that others had represented to you that Colonel Vindman leaked. Do you remember saying that?

TIM MORRISON [03:27:14.240 - 03:27:15.240]: Yes, ma'am.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:27:15.240 - 03:27:28.720]: All right. Colonel Vindman this morning under oath said that he did not, does not leak. Now, would you therefore want to maybe rearrange your comments about the references you made to Colonel Vindman?

TIM MORRISON [03:27:28.720 - 03:27:30.560]: No ma'am.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:27:30.560 - 03:27:40.080]: So, even -- even though under oath he said that he has never leaked, you believe that -- you're believing people who said to you that he may have leaked?

TIM MORRISON [03:27:40.080 - 03:27:42.640]: Ma'am, I didn't believe or disbelieve them. I'm merely relating what they --

JACKIE SPEIER [03:27:42.640 - 03:27:44.440]: -- But you then --

TIM MORRISON [03:27:44.440 - 03:27:45.520]: -- Told me.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:27:45.520 - 03:27:53.360]: Well, they told you and so then you decided to continue to put that forward even though you had no evidence.

TIM MORRISON [03:27:53.360 - 03:27:54.320]: No ma'am. No ma'am.

JACKIE SPEIER [03:27:54.320 - 03:27:56.600]: Thank you. I yield back.

TIM MORRISON [03:27:56.600 - 03:27:59.920]: Ma'am, I'm -- I'm sorry. Chairman, if I could answer?

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:27:59.920 - 03:28:01.480]: Yes, you may respond.

TIM MORRISON [03:28:01.480 - 03:28:28.200]: No, ma'am, that's incorrect. They -- Dr. Hill, Mr. Erath, others in the NSC raised concerns about Alex. Those concerns were noted. I didn't take them for face value. I did -- I treated them as representations of others. I was on alert. But I formed my own judgments. I took no action because of the statements of someone else that I couldn't independently validate.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:28:28.200 - 03:28:31.680]: Mr. Stewart?

CHRIS STEWART [03:28:31.680 - 03:28:50.800]: Thank you. Gentlemen, welcome to impeach-a-palooza 2019, which is the Democratic plan to compel America to impeach President Donald J. Trump through the sheer force of boredom, because it's been a -- a long day. And it turns out impeachment is very boring if you don't have any compelling or any condemning evidence.

CHRIS STEWART [03:28:50.800 - 03:29:23.920]: Good news and bad news, and good news is I'm going to be very, very brief. We're going on 10 plus hours of this. I will yield back some of my time. The bad news is, most of my colleagues after me won't. So, you've still some time to go. Ambassador Volker, very quickly, do you think that someone should be immune from investigation of suspected ethical or criminal activity just because they were a candidate for office, even for office of the president of the United States?

KURT VOLKER [03:29:23.920 - 03:29:25.840]: I don't think anyone should be above the law.

CHRIS STEWART [03:29:25.840 - 03:29:44.560]: Well, of course not. That would be absurd to suggest that, and I -- and I was certain that's how you would answer that question. What if some of these alleged ethical or criminal allegations occurred overseas, occurred in another country? Would it be improper to seek the host country's help, such as we do with Interpol or -- or any other law enforcement agency?

KURT VOLKER [03:29:44.560 - 03:29:49.120]: There are channels for doing that for American citizens who may have committed crimes abroad.

CHRIS STEWART [03:29:49.120 - 03:29:56.160]: Okay. And again, to seek the host nation's -- their government's help is not unusual at all, would it?

KURT VOLKER [03:29:56.160 - 03:29:57.080]: That is -- that is correct.

CHRIS STEWART [03:29:57.080 - 03:29:57.320]: Thank you.

KURT VOLKER [03:29:57.320 - 03:29:58.120]: And we often have treaties for that.

CHRIS STEWART [03:29:58.120 - 03:30:17.400]: Thank you. And again, that's painfully obvious. And to me, that's exactly and the only thing that the president was doing here. Mr. Morrison, I want to refer just briefly to Lieutenant Colonel Vindman's testimony where he described these six people -- I believe it was five or six people that were in the situation room listening to this phone call between the two presidents.

CHRIS STEWART [03:30:17.400 - 03:30:34.440]: Colonel Vindman described these individuals as exceptional. He stated that there was no reason to question their integrity or professionalism. This is an exchange that he and I had in the closed door testimony. Do you agree with the description of this -- these national security staff as exceptional people?

TIM MORRISON [03:30:34.440 - 03:30:35.960]: Sir, they are patriots, yes.

CHRIS STEWART [03:30:35.960 - 03:30:38.400]: People of great integrity and professionalism?

TIM MORRISON [03:30:38.400 - 03:30:40.320]: Yes, sir.

CHRIS STEWART [03:30:40.320 - 03:30:58.320]: Do any of these -- I'm sorry. Did any of these exceptional individuals, people of unquestioned integrity and professionalism, indicate to you that they had thought that the president of the United States engaged in any illegal or unethical behavior as a result of this phone call?

TIM MORRISON [03:30:58.320 - 03:30:59.640]: Not that I'm aware of, Congressman.

CHRIS STEWART [03:30:59.640 - 03:31:07.720]: Did any of them is suggest to you in any way that they thought the president was involved with bribery or any such thing associated with that?

TIM MORRISON [03:31:07.720 - 03:31:09.440]: Not that I'm aware of, Congressman.

CHRIS STEWART [03:31:09.440 - 03:31:27.880]: You know, it's only -- it only leaves two possible explanations. Either these individuals of what we've described as great integrity, either that's not true, which I don't believe, or they just interpreted an ambiguous conversation very differently than did Colonel Vindman. And I have one last thing just as an aside.

CHRIS STEWART [03:31:27.880 - 03:31:37.040]: As an Air Force officer, I've never understood why President Obama was against providing legal aid to the Ukraine. Ambassador, do you have some insight into why they refuse to do that?

KURT VOLKER [03:31:37.040 - 03:31:52.240]: I -- I would only point to the statements from the administration at the time. There was a perception that our allies would oppose it, that Germany would oppose it. There was a perception that Germany should be in the lead. There was a perception that it could be provocative to Russia or escalate the conflict.

KURT VOLKER [03:31:52.240 - 03:32:04.160]: As I've said extensively at the time and -- and as special representative, I don't agree with those arguments. I -- and I believe that the record has borne out that providing those lethal defensive arms was actually very important for Ukraine.

CHRIS STEWART [03:32:04.160 - 03:32:09.960]: Well, I agree with you, Ambassador. I think that you got it right and I think President Trump got it right. And with that, I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:32:09.960 - 03:32:14.040]: Mr. Quigley?

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:32:14.040 - 03:32:27.840]: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Ambassador, I want to direct your attention to a meeting you had with Ambassador Taylor and Mr. Yermak on September 14 in Keefe. Do you recall this meeting, sir?

KURT VOLKER [03:32:27.840 - 03:32:31.160]: I believe we had dinner. It was around the time of the [Inaudible].

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:32:31.160 - 03:32:46.680]: Okay. And do you remember discussing with Mr. Yermak Ukraine's intent to investigate their former President, Mr. [Inaudible]? I remember raising the issue or the possibility of prosecutions --

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:32:46.680 - 03:32:49.560]: They brought it up, is that -- you raised it and they talked about --

KURT VOLKER [03:32:49.560 - 03:32:50.400]: No, I -- I -- I believe --

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:32:50.400 - 03:32:51.160]: -- their intention?

KURT VOLKER [03:32:51.160 - 03:33:15.840]: Excuse me, Congressman. I am sorry. To be clear there was a lot of talk in Kiev at that time about whether the new team would be prosecuting the former President and I had met with President Poroshenko, I had met with others in the opposition as well and I wanted to call Mr. Yermak's attention to the potential problems of this.

KURT VOLKER [03:33:15.840 - 03:33:53.920]: I am very familiar with other examples of countries in the region that have gone for prosecutions of the former government in these have created deep divisions in society and so I decided President Zelensky's inauguration speech I'm sorry his national days speech from August 24 that was all about unifying the country and I cautioned Mr. Yermak to say that pursuing prosecution of President Poroshenko would risk deepening the divisions in the country, exactly the opposite of what President Zelensky has said he wants to do.

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:33:53.920 - 03:33:57.400]: So it is fair to describe it as you discouraged him from such action?

KURT VOLKER [03:33:57.400 - 03:34:02.440]: I -- I -- I discouraged him, I raised concerns about what the potential impact would be.

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:34:02.440 - 03:34:04.640]: And what was Mr. Yermak's response?

KURT VOLKER [03:34:04.640 - 03:34:09.400]: I believe in I am refreshed in this by seeing the testimony of others --

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:34:09.400 - 03:34:11.640]: Mr. Taylor's testimony.

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:34:11.640 - 03:34:13.320]: Ambassador Taylor and Mr. Kent.

KURT VOLKER [03:34:13.320 - 03:34:21.200]: Right, and I -- I believe based on that testimony that Mr. Yermak has said you mean like asking us to investigate Clinton and Biden.

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:34:21.200 - 03:34:39.000]: So it was -- was something along the lines of it's okay for you to ask us to investigate the manner in which you are these so-called investigations but you don't want us to investigate our own President. Is that a fair way to describe this?

KURT VOLKER [03:34:39.000 - 03:34:50.360]: Well, I didn't quite understand what he was referring to because to my knowledge we weren't asking to investigate Clinton or Biden and so I was kind of puzzled by the remark and that is why I didn't respond.

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:34:50.360 - 03:34:53.760]: Did you go and investigate what he might have mentor ask anybody?

KURT VOLKER [03:34:53.760 - 03:35:02.720]: No, I thought -- I took it something of a deflection from the point I was making about unifying Ukraine.

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:35:02.720 - 03:35:20.240]: But in all this time I mean Mr. Giuliani in this time in that May to September he mentioned the Biden investigation, he mentioned Biden over 50 times and 20 something times in relation to the Ukraine. None of that stirred your curiosity? You are just now finally come to this point?

KURT VOLKER [03:35:20.240 - 03:35:39.160]: Yeah, as I testified I -- I've met with Mr. Giuliani once and he did bring up Vice President Biden and I pushed back on that and I maintained a very clear distinction that Ukraine investigating its own citizens in corruption would be fine going beyond that to say we are going to investigate the vice president is not fine.

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:35:39.160 - 03:35:46.960]: Did you have any discussions with anyone in the State Department or anywhere else in the administration about concerns about the investigation into [Inaudible]?

KURT VOLKER [03:35:46.960 - 03:36:09.120]: Yes. So I know that I raise this with Ambassador Taylor in advance of that. We had been in some of the same meetings, some of the country team there, I don't remember whether I raised it with George Kent or Phil [Inaudible] or not, I may well have done but it was something that we had discussed as part of our meetings in Kiev at that time.

MIKE QUIGLEY [03:36:09.120 - 03:36:10.680]: I yield to the Chairman.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:36:10.680 - 03:36:27.080]: So ambassador when you have this conversation and you urged Ukrainians not to investigate or prosecute the former President [Inaudible] the response was oh, you mean like you are asking us to investigate the Clintons and the Bidens? That was their response?

KURT VOLKER [03:36:27.080 - 03:36:30.360]: That is what I recall now from seeing ambassador Taylor's testimony.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:36:30.360 - 03:36:36.000]: And you didn't understand that at the time but at the time had you read the called record?

KURT VOLKER [03:36:36.000 - 03:36:36.800]: No.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:36:36.800 - 03:36:40.360]: Now that you have read the call record that makes a little more sense doesn't it?

KURT VOLKER [03:36:40.360 - 03:36:40.720]: Yes.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:36:40.720 - 03:36:56.680]: I -- you know I was curious about something you said earlier when you said that the 2016 conspiracy theory of Lutsenko had no merit but you didn't see any harm in Ukraine investigating it if they wanted to investigate it? Is that right?

KURT VOLKER [03:36:56.680 - 03:36:57.160]: Yes.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:36:57.160 - 03:37:06.200]: Don't they have enough legitimate corruption to investigate without spending time investigating a debunked conspiracy theory?

KURT VOLKER [03:37:06.200 - 03:37:09.000]: There is all kinds of corruption to investigate in the Ukraine.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:37:09.000 - 03:37:18.400]: But none the less you propose that they go ahead and do this investigation was something you thought without merit because this was part of an effort to fix the problem that Giuliani was creating?

KURT VOLKER [03:37:18.400 - 03:37:19.640]: I did not propose it.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:37:19.640 - 03:37:32.080]: Well, I think you said you were okay with it or you amended statements as we have seen to include it because well, if it would help fix the Giuliani problem -- was that the thinking?

KURT VOLKER [03:37:32.080 - 03:37:43.160]: Yes, that's -- that is correct. If it threads the needle between what is reasonable for Ukraine to do and if it resets the negative perceptions held by Mr. Giuliani and then the President then -- then why not?

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:37:43.160 - 03:37:56.320]: This is part of what you described in your opening statement is your effort to when you see a problem to fix it. Is a clear to you now Ambassador Volker based on the September 25 call that you were not able to fix it?

KURT VOLKER [03:37:56.320 - 03:38:15.640]: Based on the transcript that was released on the 25th I can see now that there is a lot else going on that was about vice president Biden then I knew at the time and I -- the efforts that I was making were -- were clearly not in the context of what had already been discussed by the President on July 25.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:38:15.640 - 03:38:18.440]: So it is fair to say you were not able to fix the Giuliani problem?

KURT VOLKER [03:38:18.440 - 03:38:20.200]: That is correct.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:38:20.200 - 03:38:24.120]: Mr. phonic?

ELISE STEFANIK [03:38:24.120 - 03:38:44.560]: Thank you Ambassador Volker and Mr. Morrison for your years of service and your professional expertise and leadership on national security issues and I want to particularly thank Mr. Morrison for his great work on the House armed services committee on which I serve. I wanted to start with the July 25 call between President Trump and President Zelensky.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:38:44.560 - 03:38:49.560]: Mr. Morrison, you were on that call in there was no mention of withholding aid on the call, correct?

TIM MORRISON [03:38:49.560 - 03:38:50.880]: That is correct, Congresswoman.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:38:50.880 - 03:38:53.440]: And there was no quid pro quo, correct?

TIM MORRISON [03:38:53.440 - 03:38:53.960]: Correct.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:38:53.960 - 03:38:54.920]: No bribery?

TIM MORRISON [03:38:54.920 - 03:38:56.080]: Correct.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:38:56.080 - 03:38:57.040]: No extortion?

TIM MORRISON [03:38:57.040 - 03:38:58.320]: Correct.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:38:58.320 - 03:39:04.240]: And Ambassador Volker -I presume you got a readout of the call, is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:04.240 - 03:39:06.000]: Very [Inaudible] readout but yes.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:06.000 - 03:39:13.160]: In this tertiary readout of the call, ambassador from the U.S. participants was there any reference to withholding aid?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:13.160 - 03:39:13.960]: No, there was not.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:13.960 - 03:39:15.320]: Any reference to bribery?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:15.320 - 03:39:16.320]: No, there was not.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:16.320 - 03:39:17.840]: In a reference to quid pro quo?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:17.840 - 03:39:18.880]: No, there was none.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:18.880 - 03:39:20.120]: In a reference to extortion?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:20.120 - 03:39:21.200]: No, there was none.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:21.200 - 03:39:28.280]: And I presume you also got feedback from your Ukrainian counterparts as to how the call went. Did they mention the withholding of aid?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:28.280 - 03:39:29.360]: No, they did not.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:29.360 - 03:39:31.160]: Did they mention any quid pro quo?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:31.160 - 03:39:32.120]: No, they did not.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:32.120 - 03:39:33.640]: And did they mention any bribery?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:33.640 - 03:39:35.400]: No, they did not.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:35.400 - 03:39:41.280]: And in fact the day after the calls you met with President Zelensky. This would be on July 26.

KURT VOLKER [03:39:41.280 - 03:39:41.920]: That is correct.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:41.920 - 03:39:45.600]: And in that meeting he made no mention of quid pro quo?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:45.600 - 03:39:45.960]: No.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:45.960 - 03:39:47.840]: He made no mention of withholding the aid?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:47.840 - 03:39:48.280]: No.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:48.280 - 03:39:49.680]: He made no mention of bribery?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:49.680 - 03:39:50.280]: No.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:50.280 - 03:39:55.560]: So the fact is the Ukrainians were not even aware of this hold on aid, is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:39:55.560 - 03:39:56.280]: That is correct.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:39:56.280 - 03:40:10.720]: And in the coming weeks you were in touch with Ukrainians as part of your official duties in this included talking to Ukrainians over the phone, in person, on text and the Ukrainians never brought up an investigation into the Bidens, is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:40:10.720 - 03:40:11.480]: That is correct.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:40:11.480 - 03:40:13.640]: They never brought up the withholding of the aid?

KURT VOLKER [03:40:13.640 - 03:40:15.200]: That is correct.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:40:15.200 - 03:40:17.600]: They never brought up quid pro quo or bribery?

KURT VOLKER [03:40:17.600 - 03:40:22.520]: Let me bring up the aid. They did bring that up after the Politico article appeared on the --

ELISE STEFANIK [03:40:22.520 - 03:40:26.240]: I am going to get to that but until the Politico article they did not bring it up?

KURT VOLKER [03:40:26.240 - 03:40:27.040]: No.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:40:27.040 - 03:40:38.800]: And you said in your closed-door deposition quote it never came up in conversation with them and I believe they had trusted me that they would have ask if that was really what they were worried about. Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:40:38.800 - 03:40:39.960]: That is correct.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:40:39.960 - 03:40:47.320]: And as you pointed out the Ukrainians never even knew there foreign aid was on pause until the article was published in Politico in August?

KURT VOLKER [03:40:47.320 - 03:40:48.280]: That is correct.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:40:48.280 - 03:40:49.920]: So they didn't know during the call?

KURT VOLKER [03:40:49.920 - 03:40:51.040]: That is correct.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:40:51.040 - 03:41:25.800]: And in fact you had to correct chairmanship on this timeline in the closed-door deposition. The Chairman of this committee ask you quote well they became aware that military assistance was being withheld for a reason you couldn't explain, no one could explain weren't they under even greater pressure to give the President what he asked for on the call and you answered Ambassador Volker quote to my knowledge the news about a hold on security assistance did not get into Ukrainian government circles as indicated to me by the foreign minister then diplomatic advisor until the end of August.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:41:25.800 - 03:41:27.040]: Is that your testimony?

KURT VOLKER [03:41:27.040 - 03:41:28.000]: Yes, it is.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:41:28.000 - 03:42:08.080]: And chairmanship also got the facts wrong again when he ask you this. Quote at the point they learned their aid was paused wouldn't say give them -- Max wouldn't that give them added urgency to meet the President's request on the Bidens and you answered Ambassador Volker quote I think the Ukrainians felt like they are going in the right direction and they had not done anything, they had not done anything on an investigation". Isn't it the case Ambassador Volker at one point chairmanship said to you when you were truthfully testifying quote ambassador you are making this much more complicated than it has to be"? That is page 127 from the deposition.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:42:08.080 - 03:42:08.600]: Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:42:08.600 - 03:42:09.360]: I remember that.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:42:09.360 - 03:42:20.560]: But the truth is the facts are indeed not complicated? And I'm going to close out with two questions for the both of you. Did Ukraine open investigation into the Bidens? Mr. Morrison?

TIM MORRISON [03:42:20.560 - 03:42:22.560]: Not to my knowledge, ma'am.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:42:22.560 - 03:42:23.520]: Ambassador Volker?

KURT VOLKER [03:42:23.520 - 03:42:25.160]: Not to my knowledge either.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:42:25.160 - 03:42:29.880]: Didn't either of you ever have any evidence of quid pro quo? Mr. Morrison?

TIM MORRISON [03:42:29.880 - 03:42:30.520]: No ma'am.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:42:30.520 - 03:42:31.480]: Ambassador Volker?

KURT VOLKER [03:42:31.480 - 03:42:32.080]: I did not.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:42:32.080 - 03:42:33.400]: Any evidence of bribery?

TIM MORRISON [03:42:33.400 - 03:42:35.000]: No ma'am.

KURT VOLKER [03:42:35.000 - 03:42:35.720]: No ma'am.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:42:35.720 - 03:42:37.360]: Any evidence of treason?

TIM MORRISON [03:42:37.360 - 03:42:38.800]: No ma'am.

KURT VOLKER [03:42:38.800 - 03:42:40.120]: No evidence of treason.

ELISE STEFANIK [03:42:40.120 - 03:42:41.520]: With that I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:42:41.520 - 03:42:45.120]: Mr. Swalwell.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:42:45.120 - 03:42:54.680]: Thank you. Mr. Morrison, did Ambassador Bolton want the security aid hold lifted?

TIM MORRISON [03:42:54.680 - 03:42:56.000]: Yes, Congressman, he did.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:42:56.000 - 03:43:03.800]: You testified that Ambassador Bolton had a one-on-one meeting with President Trump in late August related to Ukraine security assistance. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [03:43:03.800 - 03:43:08.080]: Sir, can you point to where I testified to that?

ERIC SWALWELL [03:43:08.080 - 03:43:18.520]: On page 266, you said Ambassador Bolton had a one-on-one meeting with President Trump in late August 2019, but the president was not yet ready to approve the release of the assistance. Dear member that?

TIM MORRISON [03:43:18.520 - 03:43:20.120]: Sir was this -- this was 226?

ERIC SWALWELL [03:43:20.120 - 03:43:27.400]: Yes. 266 and 268. But I'm asking you did that happen or did it not?

TIM MORRISON [03:43:27.400 - 03:43:39.600]: Sir, I just want to be -- I want to be clear characterizing it. Okay, yes, sir. I see.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:43:39.600 - 03:43:43.920]: And you testify to that. What was the outcome of that meeting both and President Trump?

TIM MORRISON [03:43:43.920 - 03:43:48.080]: Ambassador Bolton did not yet believe the president was ready to approve the assistance.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:43:48.080 - 03:43:52.920]: Did Ambassador Bolton inform you of any reason for the ongoing hold that stemmed from this meeting?

TIM MORRISON [03:43:52.920 - 03:43:53.600]: No, sir.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:43:53.600 - 03:44:01.680]: Mr. Morrison, do you consider yourself loyal to the president?

TIM MORRISON [03:44:01.680 - 03:44:05.360]: Yes, sir.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:44:05.360 - 03:44:09.920]: And the president executes that foreign policy of the United States. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [03:44:09.920 - 03:44:13.600]: Well sir, I would say he -- he decides

ERIC SWALWELL [03:44:13.600 - 03:44:14.480]: -- He sets the foreign policy

TIM MORRISON [03:44:14.480 - 03:44:15.520]: -- He sets it, yes, sir.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:44:15.520 - 03:44:25.920]: And as a staffer on the national Security Council and even someone who serves in the military, it's your job to faithfully execute the foreign policy priorities of the president. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [03:44:25.920 - 03:44:27.640]: My oath is to obey all lawful orders.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:44:27.640 - 03:44:34.440]: On July 25, you listened to the president of the United States talk to the president of Ukraine. Is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [03:44:34.440 - 03:44:35.960]: July 25, yes, sir.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:44:35.960 - 03:44:48.280]: And regardless of what you had prepared as far as talking points for that call for the president, you heard the president of the United States ask the president of Ukraine to investigate the Bidens. Is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [03:44:48.280 - 03:44:50.840]: Yes, sir, he made a request.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:44:50.840 - 03:45:01.080]: And after the July 25 call between President Trump and that Ukrainian President, fair to say that you talk to your Ukrainian counterparts a number of times?

TIM MORRISON [03:45:01.080 - 03:45:03.200]: Yes, sir.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:45:03.200 - 03:45:09.240]: how many times when you talked to your Ukrainian counterparts did you ask them to investigate the Bidens?

TIM MORRISON [03:45:09.240 - 03:45:10.520]: Never, sir.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:45:10.520 - 03:45:12.600]: Why not?

TIM MORRISON [03:45:12.600 - 03:45:19.000]: Sir, it was not a policy objective that I was aware of.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:45:19.000 - 03:45:46.360]: But with all due respect, Mr. Morrison, you're not in the White House sick to carry out your policy, objectives. You just testified that the president sets the foreign policy objectives for the United States and that one call that you listen to between the president of the United States and the president of Ukraine, the president of the United States priorities were to investigate the Bidens and I'm asking you, sir, why didn't you follow up on the presidents priorities when you talked to the Ukrainians?

TIM MORRISON [03:45:46.360 - 03:45:49.360]: Sir, I did not understand it as a policy objective.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:45:49.360 - 03:46:16.160]: Mr. Morrison, I know that you put that conversation in the server because, as you said, you feared the political consequences and some of the reasons that you gave , but you also chose to defy the president's request to not come here, as others have like Mr. Mulvaney and Mr. Bolton and you have come here and you've been truthful and I appreciate that.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:46:16.160 - 03:46:41.960]: And Mr. Morrison, whether you acknowledge it publicly or not , I believe that you knew that what the president asked the Ukrainians to do was wrong. And as you just described, your duty is to follow the foreign policy priorities of the president, but to also only follow something that is a lawful order. And I don't think you believed that was a lawful order and that's why you did not follow up on those priorities.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:46:41.960 - 03:46:54.120]: Mr. Volker, we've heard a lot today about this president being such an anticorruption president. He really cared about fighting corruption. Yes Russia across country?

KURT VOLKER [03:46:54.120 - 03:46:56.800]: Are we talking about President Zelensky?

ERIC SWALWELL [03:46:56.800 - 03:46:58.080]: No, President Trump.

TIM MORRISON [03:46:58.080 - 03:46:59.280]: President Trump.

KURT VOLKER [03:46:59.280 - 03:46:59.880]: President Trump.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:46:59.880 - 03:47:01.200]: Is Russia a corrupt country?

KURT VOLKER [03:47:01.200 - 03:47:01.720]: Yes, it is.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:47:01.720 - 03:47:06.840]: And President Trump has met a number of times in person with President Putin. Is that right?

KURT VOLKER [03:47:06.840 - 03:47:08.640]: Yes, a few times.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:47:08.640 - 03:47:11.520]: And he's had a number of phone calls with President Putin, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [03:47:11.520 - 03:47:11.880]: Yes.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:47:11.880 - 03:47:13.520]: Is Turkey a corrupt country?

KURT VOLKER [03:47:13.520 - 03:47:15.240]: Yes, I believe so.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:47:15.240 - 03:47:22.680]: And just last week, despite the corruption, at the White House President Erdogan had an audience with the president of the United States. Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:47:22.680 - 03:47:23.320]: Yes, he did.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:47:23.320 - 03:47:37.480]: Finally, Mr. Giuliani, on May 9 told the New York Times President Trump basically knows what I'm doing as his lawyer. Are you familiar with that statement to the New York Times?

KURT VOLKER [03:47:37.480 - 03:47:38.320]: No, I'm not.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:47:38.320 - 03:47:46.760]: But you agree as someone who has a lawyer sitting next to you that a lawyer acts on a client's behalf and only on a client's behalf, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [03:47:46.760 - 03:48:02.440]: I believe that a lawyer acts on his client's behalf. I'm not sure about only on a client's behalf because I think, as I understood Mayor Giuliani in this case, he was doing a lot that I considered to believe to be on his own. I did not believe he was always instructed.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:48:02.440 - 03:48:09.160]: And when he said we are not meddling in an election, we're meddling in investigation, he didn't say I, he said we. Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:48:09.160 - 03:48:13.160]: I'm taking that from the statement.

ERIC SWALWELL [03:48:13.160 - 03:48:14.160]: I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:48:14.160 - 03:48:15.120]: Mr. Hurd.

WILL HURD [03:48:15.120 - 03:48:29.120]: Mr. Morrison, my colleague from California suggests he knows your opinions and your thoughts better than you do. You have anything -- he didn't give you the opportunity to respond. Do you have a response? Do you want to give a response?

TIM MORRISON [03:48:29.120 - 03:48:54.120]: No, sir. I heard the president make a request. I received no direction at any time to attempt to lead a policy process different from what I laid out in my deposition. I was directed by Dr. Kupperman to launch an interagency process to ensure a unity of opinion in the interagency as to the importance of continuing security sector assistance, and that's what I did.

TIM MORRISON [03:48:54.120 - 03:48:57.800]: I acted at upon the direction I was given.

WILL HURD [03:48:57.800 - 03:49:13.920]: Good. Copy. While we're with you, Mr. Morrison, thanks for your testimony, your clear and sober testimony today. Did you participate in or overhear any conversations about how political information collected by Ukraine on the Bidens would be used for political gain?

TIM MORRISON [03:49:13.920 - 03:49:16.120]: No, sir.

WILL HURD [03:49:16.120 - 03:49:27.760]: Ambassador Volker, same question. Did you participate in or overhear any conversations about how potential information collected by Ukraine on the Bidens would be used for political gain?

KURT VOLKER [03:49:27.760 - 03:49:30.440]: No, I did not.

WILL HURD [03:49:30.440 - 03:49:51.760]: There's been a lot of discussions about a text exchange you had with Mr. Yermak with on August 12 that talked about this proposed statement. And Mayor Giuliani provided some feedback on what he thought needed to be included in that. Did -- did Mayor Giuliani get feedback from the president on what should go into that proposed statement?

KURT VOLKER [03:49:51.760 - 03:49:56.960]: I have no reason to think that he had discussed it with the president.

WILL HURD [03:49:56.960 - 03:50:11.320]: Based on your recollection, Ambassador Volker, who within the Zelensky regime has Mayor Giuliani interacted with? Now, in addition to Mr. Yermak, which we already talked about and also the former Attorney General, Mr. Lutsenko.

KURT VOLKER [03:50:11.320 - 03:50:18.720]: Yeah, I don't know who else he would have interacted with in the Zelensky government. I am aware of him having claimed that he met with Mr. Lutsenko's predecessor as prosecutor general Mr. --

WILL HURD [03:50:18.720 - 03:50:20.280]: -- Yeah, but that's not within

KURT VOLKER [03:50:20.280 - 03:50:22.120]: -- That's not under the Zelensky government

WILL HURD [03:50:22.120 - 03:50:24.880]: -- Current regime that in which -- in which we are talking about.

KURT VOLKER [03:50:24.880 - 03:50:26.360]: I don't know who else he would've met with.

WILL HURD [03:50:26.360 - 03:50:32.640]: In as few words as possible, what was your understanding of Ambassador Sondland's role in Ukraine?

KURT VOLKER [03:50:32.640 - 03:50:46.000]: He cared about Ukraine, he wanted to see U.S. support for Ukraine increased, he wanted to see European Union support for Ukraine increased, including maintenance of sanctions and he wanted to be helpful.

WILL HURD [03:50:46.000 - 03:50:51.760]: Was Ambassador Sondland having conversations with seniors Zelensky officials without letting other people know?

KURT VOLKER [03:50:51.760 - 03:51:06.120]: I don't believe that he was not letting people know. I think he may have had some conversations, but I think he was just acting, you know, and I think we circled back quite frequently with myself, Ambassador Taylor, and others.

WILL HURD [03:51:06.120 - 03:51:16.520]: Can you say that you have a clear understanding of what Ambassador Sondland and Mayor Giuliani were doing in all their interactions with Ukrainian officials?

KURT VOLKER [03:51:16.520 - 03:51:40.040]: I can't say that I had a clear understanding. I thought that Ambassador Sondland and I were working on the same objective, which is getting a meeting between President Zelensky and President Trump. And that a statement, as I understood it that mentioned Burisma in2016 would be potentially helpful. I didn't know anything more about their interactions or what their thoughts were.

WILL HURD [03:51:40.040 - 03:51:46.800]: If you didn't have a clear understanding as the special representative to Ukraine, do you think the Ukrainians had a clear understanding?

KURT VOLKER [03:51:46.800 - 03:51:48.720]: No, I don't.

WILL HURD [03:51:48.720 - 03:51:53.360]: you thought there was a difference between Burisma, Biden, and the 2016 elections. Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:51:53.360 - 03:51:54.000]: That is correct.

WILL HURD [03:51:54.000 - 03:51:56.720]: Do you think that Ukrainians had similar understanding?

KURT VOLKER [03:51:56.720 - 03:51:58.560]: Yes, I do.

WILL HURD [03:51:58.560 - 03:52:20.840]: There's also a perception that when ambassador Yovanovitch, who we've all, you know, her 33 years of being an awesome ambassador that when she left Kiev at the U.S. position on corruption would weaken. That's kind of a narrative that's floating around. Who was the person that took over for her in the interim?

WILL HURD [03:52:20.840 - 03:52:22.320]: Who is that [Inaudible] after?

KURT VOLKER [03:52:22.320 - 03:52:25.960]: Immediately after Masha was Joe Pennington.

WILL HURD [03:52:25.960 - 03:52:30.040]: Was this individual strong or weak on corruption?

KURT VOLKER [03:52:30.040 - 03:52:34.560]: I would say in line with all the rest of our policy.

WILL HURD [03:52:34.560 - 03:52:37.320]: And after that individual, who was that person replaced with?

KURT VOLKER [03:52:37.320 - 03:52:38.280]: That was Bill Taylor.

WILL HURD [03:52:38.280 - 03:52:41.120]: Who you suggested for the -- for the position, correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:52:41.120 - 03:52:41.360]: yes.

WILL HURD [03:52:41.360 - 03:52:43.880]: Was Ambassador Taylor strong or weak on corruption?

KURT VOLKER [03:52:43.880 - 03:52:45.120]: Very strong.

WILL HURD [03:52:45.120 - 03:52:50.240]: Mr. Morrison, in my last 23 minutes, who sets official U.S. policies?

TIM MORRISON [03:52:50.240 - 03:52:54.040]: Sir, the president.

WILL HURD [03:52:54.040 - 03:52:58.600]: Not some other staffer within the NSC process?

TIM MORRISON [03:52:58.600 - 03:53:04.360]: Sir, the NSC staff exists to ensure the president has the full array of options for his decision.

WILL HURD [03:53:04.360 - 03:53:06.640]: Thank you. I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:53:06.640 - 03:53:07.720]: Mr. Castro.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:53:07.720 - 03:53:17.960]: Thank you, Chairman. Thank you gentlemen for your testimony today. Is it correct to say that both you gentlemen are -- were either appointed or hired by the White House by the trumpet administration?

TIM MORRISON [03:53:17.960 - 03:53:20.000]: Yes, sir.

KURT VOLKER [03:53:20.000 - 03:53:22.280]: In my case by Secretary Tillerson.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:53:22.280 - 03:53:24.600]: But part of the trumpet administration?

KURT VOLKER [03:53:24.600 - 03:53:26.800]: Yes, serving in the same administration.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:53:26.800 - 03:53:50.440]: Sure. Ambassador Volker, you previously testified that Ambassador Gordon Sondland quote I just know that he had a relationship with President Trump that I did not have. In fact, in one text message dated July 26 you wrote to Ambassador Sondland quote great photo, Gordon, can you get this to POTUS without intermediaries?

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:53:50.440 - 03:53:58.320]: July 26 was the same day that Ambassador Sondland spoke to the President from a restaurant in Kiev, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [03:53:58.320 - 03:54:00.880]: I'm sorry, they did again?

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:54:00.880 - 03:54:02.200]: July 26.

KURT VOLKER [03:54:02.200 - 03:54:04.240]: Yes, I know that to be correct now.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:54:04.240 - 03:54:06.920]: Were you aware of that call?

KURT VOLKER [03:54:06.920 - 03:54:07.720]: No, I was not.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:54:07.720 - 03:54:16.000]: Well, this committee certainly is aware of it now as we all are. Were you aware that Ambassador Sondland had a direct line to the President?

KURT VOLKER [03:54:16.000 - 03:54:18.400]: He claimed that he spoke to the President frequently.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:54:18.400 - 03:54:20.680]: Did you have reason to doubt that?

KURT VOLKER [03:54:20.680 - 03:54:29.560]: Ambassador Sondland is a big personality and sometimes says things that might be a bit bigger than life but --

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:54:29.560 - 03:54:36.360]: But he to -- he was a political appointee, he was hand-picked by the President or somebody in the presidents administration to serve in his position.

KURT VOLKER [03:54:36.360 - 03:54:38.320]: And I believe that he could speak with the President.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:54:38.320 - 03:54:44.600]: He had also been a large donor to one of trumps -- President Trump's campaign committees, is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [03:54:44.600 - 03:54:45.760]: I have learned that.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:54:45.760 - 03:55:07.840]: Mr. Morrison, you stated during your testimony that when you met Ambassador Sondland for the first time he represented that quote, his mandate from the President was to go make deals and in fact you testified that between July 25 and September 11 of this year you heard or learned that Ambassador Sondland and President Trump spoke on several occasions.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:55:07.840 - 03:55:16.280]: Is it accurate that every time you checked you were able to confirm that Ambassador Sondland had in fact spoken to the President?

TIM MORRISON [03:55:16.280 - 03:55:17.160]: Yes, Congressman.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:55:17.160 - 03:55:30.360]: Mr. Morrison, you also testified that Ambassador Sondland email you and several White House staff to say that he brief President Trump in advance of his July 25 call with the Ukrainian President. Is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [03:55:30.360 - 03:55:31.280]: Yes, Congressman.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:55:31.280 - 03:55:35.240]: Did Ambassador Sondland tell you what he brief the President on?

TIM MORRISON [03:55:35.240 - 03:55:46.320]: It was -- he -- he sent me an email, sir. It was a very succinct it with a list of three items -- it was a very succinct item with respect to the Ukraine. I briefed the President on the call.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:55:46.320 - 03:55:54.720]: And you testified that you personally confirm that Ambassador Sondland and President Trump had spoken before the July 25 call?

TIM MORRISON [03:55:54.720 - 03:55:58.800]: That is correct, Congressman.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:55:58.800 - 03:56:02.320]: And presumably the White House situation room keeps a record of those calls.

TIM MORRISON [03:56:02.320 - 03:56:05.880]: Sir, that is how I was able to confirm it.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:56:05.880 - 03:56:17.440]: Okay. You separately testified that your staff prepared a briefing memo with suggested coins for the President to raise on July 25, points that were consistent with U.S. policy. Is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [03:56:17.440 - 03:56:18.360]: Correct, Congressman.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:56:18.360 - 03:56:20.920]: But the President didn't use those points, did he?

TIM MORRISON [03:56:20.920 - 03:56:22.280]: No, sir, he did not.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:56:22.280 - 03:56:32.960]: So I guess let me get this straight. You prepared materials for the President, your materials did not include references to Biden or the 2016 election, is that right?

TIM MORRISON [03:56:32.960 - 03:56:34.240]: Correct, Congressman.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:56:34.240 - 03:56:47.000]: And then Ambassador Sondland, the guy who is the Gordon problem, the guy who's got a direct link to the President, the guy who is talking about making deals briefed President Trump is that right?

TIM MORRISON [03:56:47.000 - 03:56:49.040]: Correct, Congressman.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:56:49.040 - 03:57:00.280]: And then President Trump raised the 2016 election and Vice President Biden and his son to the Ukrainian President after he was briefed by Ambassador Sondland is that right?

TIM MORRISON [03:57:00.280 - 03:57:03.400]: Correct, Congressman.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:57:03.400 - 03:57:41.680]: It sounds like Ambassador Sondland and the President were on the same page. They both are working to benefit the president's personal political interest even when that undermined U.S. foreign policy. I want to ask you in the short time that I have both of you gentlemen who serve the United States government whether putting President Trump beside whether you believe that it is proper for any President now or later to ask a foreign government to investigate a U.S. citizen and specifically a U.S. citizen that could be a political rival.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:57:41.680 - 03:57:43.800]: Ambassador?

KURT VOLKER [03:57:43.800 - 03:57:54.120]: I -- I don't believe it is appropriate for the President to do that. If we have law enforcement concerns with a U.S. citizen generally there are appropriate channels for that.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:57:54.120 - 03:57:55.680]: Mr. Morrison?

TIM MORRISON [03:57:55.680 - 03:57:57.440]: I agree with Ambassador Volker, sir.

JOAQUIN CASTRO [03:57:57.440 - 03:58:00.160]: Thank you Chairman. I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:58:00.160 - 03:58:03.200]: Mr. Ratcliffe?

JOHN RATCLIFFE [03:58:03.200 - 03:58:20.880]: Thank you, Chairman. Gentlemen I appreciate both of you being here today. I know it has been a long day for you. Mr. Morrison I'm going to try and summarize some of what we have heard to shorten this. You were on the July 25 call, Colonel Vindman was on the July 25 call, correct?

TIM MORRISON [03:58:20.880 - 03:58:22.400]: Yes, Congressman.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [03:58:22.400 - 03:58:40.600]: And I will tell you that he testified earlier today that he heard what he thought was a demand on that call that was improper and felt that he had a duty to report that. I think we have established already that he did not discuss or report any of that to you, correct?

TIM MORRISON [03:58:40.600 - 03:58:41.640]: Yes, Congressman.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [03:58:41.640 - 03:59:01.080]: But you did have a discussion with Colonel Vindman about other concerns that he had with the call and I believe you said the fidelity of the translation and the fact that you both shared a discussion about not -- they are not being a full throated embrace of the Ukrainian reform agenda. Is that fair?

TIM MORRISON [03:59:01.080 - 03:59:01.880]: Yes, Congressman.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [03:59:01.880 - 03:59:16.520]: Okay. But with respect to his concern about something improper specifically at no point did he come to you and say I heard something that I thought was improper and was a crime?

TIM MORRISON [03:59:16.520 - 03:59:19.520]: Sir, I have no recollection of him doing that.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [03:59:19.520 - 03:59:23.600]: No bribe, no extortion, no quid pro quo? All of the things that Mr. phonic ask you?

TIM MORRISON [03:59:23.600 - 03:59:24.520]: No, sir.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [03:59:24.520 - 03:59:34.080]: All right. And as you were listening did you hear President Trump make a demand of anything that would constitute a crime?

TIM MORRISON [03:59:34.080 - 03:59:42.160]: Sir, I have been trying to stay on the safe side of making legal conclusions but no, sir, I did not hear him make any sort of demand.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [03:59:42.160 - 03:59:43.160]: You have a law degree.

TIM MORRISON [03:59:43.160 - 03:59:44.440]: I do, sir.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [03:59:44.440 - 03:59:47.720]: So you are at least generally familiar with bribery and extortion, generally?

TIM MORRISON [03:59:47.720 - 03:59:50.760]: I -- I am not a lawyer for the United States, sir.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [03:59:50.760 - 04:00:00.800]: All right. But is it fair to say that as you were listening to the call you weren't thinking well, the President's -- the President is bribing the President of the Ukraine? That never crossed your mind.

TIM MORRISON [04:00:00.800 - 04:00:01.760]: It did not, sir.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:00:01.760 - 04:00:04.120]: Or that he was extorting the President of the Ukraine?

TIM MORRISON [04:00:04.120 - 04:00:05.640]: It did not, sir.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:00:05.640 - 04:00:06.680]: Or doing anything improper?

TIM MORRISON [04:00:06.680 - 04:00:08.040]: Correct, sir.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:00:08.040 - 04:00:23.560]: All right. And have you heard or read in the media where President Zelensky agrees with you and said repeatedly and consistently that he didn't hear any demand, he didn't hear any conditions, he didn't feel any pressure, he didn't experience anything improper or corrupt on the call?

TIM MORRISON [04:00:23.560 - 04:00:29.880]: Sir, I attended the bilateral in New York at the UN General assembly and he made clear at the time in front of the press that he felt no pressure.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:00:29.880 - 04:00:42.760]: So did anyone on the national Security Council after this call express to you that some crime, bribery, extortion, quid pro quo, anything had occurred?

TIM MORRISON [04:00:42.760 - 04:00:43.680]: No, sir.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:00:43.680 - 04:01:33.040]: I want to ask you Mr. Morrison about the whistleblower complaint. I don't want to ask you to speculate as to the identity but I want to ask you about the accusations that started this as to the veracity. First of all the whistleblower who apparently was not on the call advised the ICIG that he or she was concerned that the President's conduct constituted under title 50 USC section 3033 quote a serious problem, abuse or violation of law or executive order". Again to be clear you didn't hear a violation of law or executive order as you listen to the call?

TIM MORRISON [04:01:33.040 - 04:01:36.400]: Sir, I made no judgment about any illegal conduct occurring.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:01:36.400 - 04:01:57.640]: The whistleblower also reported in starting this inquiry asserted that the President -- President Trump quote sought to pressure the Ukrainian leadership to take actions to help the president's 2020 reelection bid. President Trump does not mention 2020 during the call, does he?

TIM MORRISON [04:01:57.640 - 04:01:59.960]: No, sir, I don't believe he did.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:01:59.960 - 04:02:04.720]: President Trump doesn't mention his reelection bid during the call does he?

TIM MORRISON [04:02:04.720 - 04:02:06.280]: Sir, I don't believe he did.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:02:06.280 - 04:02:13.440]: And you did not hear President Trump pressure or have a demand of any kind as we have already established, correct?

TIM MORRISON [04:02:13.440 - 04:02:14.120]: Correct, sir.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:02:14.120 - 04:02:18.080]: The whistleblower like Colonel Vindman also uses the word demand.

UNIDENTIFIED [04:02:18.080 - 04:02:21.840]: Did you say whistleblower like Colonel Vindman -- I don't think that is [Inaudible].

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:02:21.840 - 04:02:28.760]: Counsel, you should use the microphone.

UNIDENTIFIED [04:02:28.760 - 04:02:31.320]: Thank you. I'm sorry. In all due respect, Congressman --

TIM MORRISON [04:02:31.320 - 04:02:31.800]: -- Yeah --

UNIDENTIFIED [04:02:31.800 - 04:02:35.320]: -- I believe you just said a whistleblower like Colonel Vindman.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:02:35.320 - 04:02:36.120]: No, I said -- I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED [04:02:36.120 - 04:02:37.640]: I -- that's not in evidence.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:02:37.640 - 04:02:59.680]: Yeah, the whistleblower, like Colonel Vindman also uses the word demand. On page 4, the whistleblower asserted "Ambassador Volker and Sondland purportedly provided advice to Ukrainian leadership about how to navigate the demands the president had made of Mr. Zelensky." Again, there were no demands from your perspective, Mr. Morrison.

TIM MORRISON [04:02:59.680 - 04:03:00.880]: That is correct, sir.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:03:00.880 - 04:03:14.360]: All right. So, speculations about the whistleblower aside with regard to motivations, the fact is that the whistleblower was wrong about many of the facts as well, correct? As --

TIM MORRISON [04:03:14.360 - 04:03:19.640]: -- Sir, I'm not intimately familiar with the whistleblower complaint. But I did not hear a demand in the call.

JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:03:19.640 - 04:03:20.960]: I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:03:20.960 - 04:03:23.480]: The time of the gentleman is expired. Mr. Heck?

DENNY HECK [04:03:23.480 - 04:03:56.600]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ambassador Volker, I want to thank you for being here today, and I frankly found some of your opening statement to be not just genuine but downright eloquent. In particular, I noted the passages about pushing back on Russian aggression and supporting the development of a strong, resilient, democratic, and prosperous Ukraine, one that overcomes a legacy of corruption and that this is critically important for U.S. national security.

DENNY HECK [04:03:56.600 - 04:04:30.240]: Some of us believe that we're not pushing back strongly enough on Russia. Some of us believe we're not being supportive enough of the Ukraine. But one of our challenges is to go home to the people for whom we work and help explain to them why it is in our national security interest. You have an audience like you'll never have again to -- to look into the camera and tell the American public why it is important to support Ukraine, why it should matter to them if the biggest issue in their life is getting their kids off to school, paying their bills, and the like, sir.

KURT VOLKER [04:04:30.240 - 04:04:42.840]: Thank you so much, Congressman. I agree with you completely that we are not pushing back hard enough on Russia and that we owe Ukraine a great deal of support.

DENNY HECK [04:04:42.840 - 04:04:43.960]: Why does it matter?

KURT VOLKER [04:04:43.960 - 04:05:15.200]: Russia is trying to upend security in Europe. It's trying to reassert its domination of neighboring countries, whether it's Georgia or Ukraine or the Baltic states. It has led to war in Europe. The war in Ukraine has left more people dead in Europe in a European war that anything since the Balkans, more people displaced by a war in Europe since anything since World War II. These are people who stand up for freedom, for democracy.

KURT VOLKER [04:05:15.200 - 04:05:33.560]: They want reform. They want to see their country be successful like Germany unlike Sweden, like us. And they are fighting a war of aggression against them designed to hold them back. And if we want to live in a world of freedom for the United States, we ought to be supporting freedom for people around the world.

DENNY HECK [04:05:33.560 - 04:06:03.240]: Thank you for that. So, we're here in part because of a cover-up, a concern for general corruption. As some of us believe there wasn't, in fact there was something quite nefarious as the alternative, that there wasn't a concern about general corruption. But reviewing the record on that, sir, is it not true that in March of this year the Department of Defense certified Ukraine as having been sufficient -- having made sufficient progress to continue to receive military assistance?

KURT VOLKER [04:06:03.240 - 04:06:05.960]: I don't know the details of that, but I believe that to be correct.

DENNY HECK [04:06:05.960 - 04:06:15.000]: Is it not true that on April 21st President Zelensky won an overwhelming mandate with 73 percent of the vote, based largely on his effort and advocacy for anticorruption?

KURT VOLKER [04:06:15.000 - 04:06:15.760]: That is correct.

DENNY HECK [04:06:15.760 - 04:06:23.800]: Is it not true that this mandate was affirmed and expanded on July 21st when his party one one-party control, again on the basis of anticorruption?

KURT VOLKER [04:06:23.800 - 04:06:24.640]: That is correct.

DENNY HECK [04:06:24.640 - 04:06:30.320]: In fact, subsequently he enacted sweeping reforms to combat anticorruption, did he not?

KURT VOLKER [04:06:30.320 - 04:06:31.400]: Yes, he has.

DENNY HECK [04:06:31.400 - 04:06:40.360]: It is it not true that everybody on the ground thought -- or was filled with optimism that Ukraine was getting serious about combating corruption?

KURT VOLKER [04:06:40.360 - 04:06:41.320]: That is correct.

DENNY HECK [04:06:41.320 - 04:06:52.360]: Ambassador Volker, did you know that one of the very first anticorruption measures passed in Ukraine was a law to provide for the impeachment of the president?

KURT VOLKER [04:06:52.360 - 04:06:53.440]: I did not know that.

DENNY HECK [04:06:53.440 - 04:07:14.040]: It's true, because he thought we should start with its -- himself. I raised this because my friends on the other side of the aisle keep characterizing this impeachment inquiry as inherently wrong because, and I'm quoting them, "It will overturn an election," over and over, it will overturn an election. Well, impeachment is an anticorruption tool.

DENNY HECK [04:07:14.040 - 04:07:36.440]: And for my friends on the other side of the aisle, yes, it does overturn an election. By definition overturns an election. I -- I don't know if they've got a problem with their Constitution and its provisions for impeachment, but I recommend they reread the relevant passages in Article 1, section 2 and 3, and some of the history about how we got there.

DENNY HECK [04:07:36.440 - 04:08:03.720]: Look, none of us wants to be here despite what's being said. None of us can do this easily. I didn't. I will recall for the rest of my life the 48 hours I spent at our family cabin, literally plunged in self-reflection and literally prayerful deliberation about this whole matter. Collectively we are going to have to grapple with this very grave decision.

DENNY HECK [04:08:03.720 - 04:08:23.520]: It's weighty and it's going to get hard, and it's hard in proportion to its importance to our great republic, a republic if we can keep it. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:08:23.520 - 04:08:25.560]: Mr. Jordan?

JIM JORDAN [04:08:25.560 - 04:08:41.280]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ambassador Volker, in -- in the now famous call transcript, the bottom of page 3, President Trump said this. "I heard you had a prosecutor and he was shut down and that's really unfair." I just -- just for clarification, do you believe President Trump was talking about Lutsenko or Shokin?

KURT VOLKER [04:08:41.280 - 04:08:42.040]: Shokin.

JIM JORDAN [04:08:42.040 - 04:08:50.480]: Shokin. Now, which -- all right. Thank you so much. We -- that's what I thought as well. Mr. Morrison, you testified in your deposition that you had issues with Colonel Vindman's judgment. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [04:08:50.480 - 04:08:52.240]: It is, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:08:52.240 - 04:08:59.280]: And you said specifically that you had concerns with Colonel Vindman exercising, "appropriate judgment as to whom he said what." Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [04:08:59.280 - 04:09:00.120]: It is, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:09:00.120 - 04:09:06.800]: You testified that Dr. Hill, your predecessor at NSC, told you that she had concerns about Colonel Vindman -- Vindman's judgment. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [04:09:06.800 - 04:09:07.440]: It is, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:09:07.440 - 04:09:11.000]: And you testified that Colonel Vindman did not always adhere to the chain of command. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [04:09:11.000 - 04:09:13.560]: I -- I believe so, yes, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:09:13.560 - 04:09:18.200]: You testified that you were aware of issues with Colonel Vindman trying to access information outside his lane. Is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [04:09:18.200 - 04:09:24.240]: Sir, I believe I was -- I -- I stated that I was aware that there were those who were concerned about that, yes, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:09:24.240 - 04:09:27.480]: Okay. Thank you. You testified that Colonel Vindman was not included on certain trips. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [04:09:27.480 - 04:09:28.320]: Yes, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:09:28.320 - 04:09:35.640]: And you testified that colleagues expressed concerns to you about Colonel Vindman leaking information. Is that right?

TIM MORRISON [04:09:35.640 - 04:09:36.560]: Yes, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:09:36.560 - 04:10:11.880]: Now, when I asked Colonel Vindman why he didn't go to you with his concerns about the call, even though you, his boss, had no concerns about anything being -- I think your language was nothing improper, nothing illegal on the call. I asked Colonel Vindman earlier this morning why he didn't go to you and instead went and talked to the lawyers, his brother, Secretary Kent, and one other person that he wouldn't tell us and chairmanship wouldn't allow him to tell us. When I asked him why he did that, he indicated that the lawyers had instructed him to do that and he tried to get ahold of you.

JIM JORDAN [04:10:11.880 - 04:10:12.760]: Is that -- is that fair?

TIM MORRISON [04:10:12.760 - 04:10:19.240]: Sir, I -- I -- I watched part of the proceedings this morning. I -- I heard him say that, yes, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:10:19.240 - 04:10:31.960]: Okay. Well, one thing that Chairman Schiff brought up at the end of this morning's hearing, he said -- he pointed out that you, Colonel Vindman's boss, also went to the lawyers. But your reason for going to the lawyers was a little different, wasn't it?

TIM MORRISON [04:10:31.960 - 04:10:33.000]: Yes, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:10:33.000 - 04:10:46.560]: Yeah, I think you had a few things that Mr. Castor and you talked about earlier in today's hearing, but I think at the top of your list was you were concerned about the contents of the call leaking out. Is that fair?

TIM MORRISON [04:10:46.560 - 04:10:47.480]: Yes, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:10:47.480 - 04:10:50.160]: And that's exactly what happened, isn't it?

TIM MORRISON [04:10:50.160 - 04:11:03.680]: Sir, I -- I don't know -- I don't know that the contents leaked out. There was a whistleblower complaint. The president chose to declassify the Mem-Comm.

JIM JORDAN [04:11:03.680 - 04:11:30.160]: Well, it seems to me your prophetic, Mr. Morrison, because you said in your statement today, as I stated during my deposition I feared at the time of the call on July 25th how the disclosure of the contents of the call would play in Washington's political climate. My fears have been realized. It seems to me you saw what might happen and it sure enough did it. Fair to say?

TIM MORRISON [04:11:30.160 - 04:11:32.360]: Yes, sir.

JIM JORDAN [04:11:32.360 - 04:11:55.440]: And we get all this. I mean, we get all this, and that's the part that -- that's the part that gets me. We get all this, these hearings, these weeks in the basement and the -- the bunker in the basement of the capitol. And the four facts that we keep coming back to have never changed, will never change. We've heard from both of you today that confirmed to these fundamental facts.

JIM JORDAN [04:11:55.440 - 04:12:28.120]: We've got the call transcript. As you've both said, no linkage to security assistance dollars and investigations in the call transcript. We've got the two individuals who were on the call. They've both said no linkage, no pressure, no pushing. We've got the fact that the Ukrainians didn't even know aid had been withheld until August 29th. And most importantly, the Ukrainians did nothing as far as starting, promising to start, announcing they were going to start investigations, did nothing and the aid released.

JIM JORDAN [04:12:28.120 - 04:12:52.000]: And I believe it got released because of what we've been talking about, the good work of Mr. -- excuse me, Ambassador Volker and others. I believe that's why it happened. And yet here we are. And you -- you called it all. You -- you saw this coming. That's why you went to the lawyers. That's why you wanted the -- that's why the concern was there, and that's the part that's most troubling.

JIM JORDAN [04:12:52.000 - 04:12:56.560]: I yield back, Mr. Chairman. I yield to the gentleman from Ohio.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:12:56.560 - 04:13:13.760]: On Daily Mail, they currently have this headline. It says Ukraine special envoy Kurt Volker walks back his closed-door testimony and says he "has now learned there was a link between U.S. military aid and a Biden probe." That's not your testimony today, is it?

KURT VOLKER [04:13:13.760 - 04:13:15.320]: I don't believe that's in my testimony.

MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:13:15.320 - 04:13:16.920]: Thank you. I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:13:16.920 - 04:13:19.960]: Mr. Welch.

PETER WELCH [04:13:19.960 - 04:13:58.920]: Thank you. Just following up on Mr. Jordan, the easiest way to avoid investigation is to not do anything wrong. I want to talk a little bit about why we're here. Official government actions can't be traded for helping a political campaign. Let me give an analogy and ask each of you if you agree. Could a mayor of the city withhold funding for the police department budget unless the police chief agreed to open up an investigation on a political rival?

PETER WELCH [04:13:58.920 - 04:13:59.720]: Mr. Morrison.

TIM MORRISON [04:13:59.720 - 04:14:04.600]: In that hypothetical, no, I don't think he should do that.

PETER WELCH [04:14:04.600 - 04:14:08.600]: Yeah. And Mr. Volker -- Ambassador Volker, I'm sure you would agree.

KURT VOLKER [04:14:08.600 - 04:14:09.120]: Yes.

PETER WELCH [04:14:09.120 - 04:14:21.480]: And the same would be true if it were a governor withholding the budget request of the state the police unless the state police agreed to conduct an investigation on applicable rival. You would agree?

KURT VOLKER [04:14:21.480 - 04:14:22.120]: Correct.

TIM MORRISON [04:14:22.120 - 04:14:24.240]: Yes, sir.

PETER WELCH [04:14:24.240 - 04:14:47.400]: In your view, is it any different for a member of Congress? Of course not, right? Would you agree that the president has the same obligation as the mayor, as the governor, as the member of Congress to not withhold aid unless he gets an investigation into a political rival? Mr. Morrison

TIM MORRISON [04:14:47.400 - 04:14:49.920]: Yes sir, I would agree with that hypothetical.

KURT VOLKER [04:14:49.920 - 04:14:51.000]: I would agree.

PETER WELCH [04:14:51.000 - 04:15:15.280]: Thanks. And we are having a debate here, both sides, as to how to read what's plainly before us, that the presidential phone call where the president ignored the work of the advisors and the national security council talking points and instead chose to talk about the Bidens and talk about Hunter Biden and asked for an investigation.

PETER WELCH [04:15:15.280 - 04:15:35.720]: So we are just going to have to debate that. But isn't the principal that no person, including the president, is above the law absolutely essential and worth the effort to make certain that we continue to guarantee, Ambassador Morrison?

TIM MORRISON [04:15:35.720 - 04:15:39.080]: Sir, I haven't been promoted.

PETER WELCH [04:15:39.080 - 04:15:41.440]: I'm sorry, Ambassador Volker. I'm sorry. Pardon me.

KURT VOLKER [04:15:41.440 - 04:15:42.040]: Yes.

PETER WELCH [04:15:42.040 - 04:15:44.480]: Yeah. And Mr. Morrison?

TIM MORRISON [04:15:44.480 - 04:15:46.640]: Sir, the rule of law is essential to our democracy.

PETER WELCH [04:15:46.640 - 04:16:24.960]: That's so true. You know, we've had some discussions and challenge from the other side that the president has authority in foreign policy to do what he likes. And in fact, he does. You know, a recent precedent by President Trump to take our troops out of Syria and allow the Turkish forces to go in literally meant that some Kurdish families went to bed Saturday night and woke up Sunday morning, packed their kids, and fled for their lives.

PETER WELCH [04:16:24.960 - 04:16:59.400]: A lot of people, including both sides of the aisle totally disagreed with that. But that president has the authority to do it impulsive as that decision may have been, unwise as it may have been as threatening to our national security. We're not talking about that here. And Ambassador Volker, I've listened to your testimony and I take it and thank you for making efforts to try to advance what had been a bipartisan Ukraine policy, help Ukraine get rid of corruption, help resist Russian aggression.

PETER WELCH [04:16:59.400 - 04:17:12.800]: But -- but you came to learn painfully is that there was a sidebar Ukraine policy with Giuliani as the advocate and it appears ambassador's online is very much involved. Is that correct?

KURT VOLKER [04:17:12.800 - 04:17:16.440]: I don't know everything about that, sir.

PETER WELCH [04:17:16.440 - 04:17:31.640]: You don't, but as you have been involved in with the benefit of hindsight, while you were working on what you thought was stopping aggression and ending -- in and eliminating corruption, there was a side deal here to get investigations going, correct?

KURT VOLKER [04:17:31.640 - 04:17:49.280]: So yes, sir, my objective was purely focused on support for Ukraine. National Security and I now have learned through other testimony about the president's statement about investigating Biden and other conversations that I did not know about.

PETER WELCH [04:17:49.280 - 04:18:21.800]: Right. And thank you for that and thank you for your candor about Vice President Biden's integrity and service. But the bottom line here is that at the end of the day, we're going to have to make a judgment about what the president was up to with respect to that request for the favor and how it repudiated the policy that was the bipartisan effort in Ukraine and raises questions about he and that hypothetical example I gave up of the mayor held himself to be above the law.

PETER WELCH [04:18:21.800 - 04:18:22.760]: I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:18:22.760 - 04:18:27.040]: Mr. Maloney.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:18:27.040 - 04:18:46.640]: Gentlemen, thank you for being here. Ambassador Volker, I was struck by your opening statement. It moved a long way from the testimony you presented to us in October and I know you gave a reason for that, which is that you were in the dark about a lot of these things. Is that for fair to say?

KURT VOLKER [04:18:46.640 - 04:18:52.400]: That is one thing is that I learned a lot out of the testimony of others.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:18:52.400 - 04:19:15.680]: You learned a lot. You learned a lot. And what you said on page 8, I'm referring to your statement that you gave this morning, excuse me, this afternoon, that I did not know, this is quoting, "I did not know that President Trump or others had raised Vice President Biden with the Ukrainians or had conflated the investigation of possible Ukrainian corruption with investigation of the former Vice President Biden," right?

KURT VOLKER [04:19:15.680 - 04:19:16.440]: Correct.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:19:16.440 - 04:19:19.440]: You didn't know Burisma meant Biden. That's what you're saying, right?

KURT VOLKER [04:19:19.440 - 04:19:20.960]: Right. I -- I had separated the two.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:19:20.960 - 04:19:35.440]: I got it. Well, you didn't know, right question mark I mean, you work -- you were -- well, do we have to go it, sir? I mean, you were -- you were there on May 23 for the meeting with the president when he said talk to Rudy and Rudy short cared about the investigation, which you now note meant Biden, right?

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:19:35.440 - 04:19:37.880]: But you missed it on May 23, right?

KURT VOLKER [04:19:37.880 - 04:19:45.040]: No, sir. I understood at the time that Hunter Biden and Vice President Biden's son had been a board member of Burisma.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:19:45.040 - 04:19:51.680]: I understand. But I didn't read that you didn't read that as a request to investigate the Bidens at that time. That's all I'm saying.

KURT VOLKER [04:19:51.680 - 04:19:52.240]: Right. Correct.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:19:52.240 - 04:20:01.920]: And on July 10, you were in not one, but two meetings in the White House where Ambassador Sondland raised the investigations, but you didn't know it was about the Bidens. That's your testimony, right, at the time?

KURT VOLKER [04:20:01.920 - 04:20:04.320]: That's right. I did not think he was talking about anything specific.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:20:04.320 - 04:20:20.680]: Right. You heard him say investigations, you thought it was inappropriate and the chairman asked you about that, but you said oh, I didn't it's because I didn't know it was the Bidens, I just thought it was inappropriate and that I guess when they were in the Wardroom and ambassador Sunderland raised charisma and the Bidens and 2016, you missed that too, as I understand it.

KURT VOLKER [04:20:20.680 - 04:20:21.440]: That is correct.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:20:21.440 - 04:20:43.640]: Right. And then of course on July 18, you knew aid was withheld and then in August you spent a good part of the time with this statement with Rudy Giuliani, right: I mean, you were the guy making the changes and interacting with Ukrainians. You're putting in Rudy's changes, which included a call for investigating Burisma and the 2016 elections, which you now know meant Bidens, right?

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:20:43.640 - 04:21:02.960]: You didn't know it at the time, right, but now we know it, right? And then on September 1, you were in Warsaw. I mean, you were at every point in this. You were in Warsaw and you were there when Ambassador Sondland told Andriy Yermak that he was not going to get security assistance, he wasn't going to get a White House meeting unless there was the investigation.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:21:02.960 - 04:21:06.880]: And I understand you missed that, you are out of the loop then

KURT VOLKER [04:21:06.880 - 04:21:10.080]: -- That's not correct, sir. So I was not in Warsaw at these meetings.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:21:10.080 - 04:21:13.960]: Oh, excuse me. You were not in Warsaw, but you heard about it right after from Sondland, is that right?

KURT VOLKER [04:21:13.960 - 04:21:17.000]: No, that's not quite correct either. It was sometime later.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:21:17.000 - 04:21:28.200]: I got it. So but now we know, right? Now you know what it meant and you said in retrospect, I should have seen that connection differently. And had I done so, I would have raised my own objections.

KURT VOLKER [04:21:28.200 - 04:21:29.200]: Right. That is correct.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:21:29.200 - 04:21:31.640]: What are the objections you would have raised, sir?

KURT VOLKER [04:21:31.640 - 04:21:39.880]: What I would've raised is that people are conflating investigating the Bidens with investigating this Ukrainian company Marie's mother and

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:21:39.880 - 04:21:47.960]: But if you -- you have objected to the president asking for an investigation of the Bidens as you sit here now, you said I would have raised my own objections

KURT VOLKER [04:21:47.960 - 04:21:48.480]: Yes

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:21:48.480 - 04:21:49.840]: If you knew it was the Bidens.

KURT VOLKER [04:21:49.840 - 04:22:00.840]: If I knew we were talking about investigating Vice President Biden and asking the Ukrainians to do that

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:22:00.840 - 04:22:02.360]: -- And his son

KURT VOLKER [04:22:02.360 - 04:22:06.640]: -- That would be -- that would be inappropriate and I would have objected to that.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:22:06.640 - 04:22:16.320]: Right and when -- and so if you had heard him ask for it on the call and you said in retrospect Ukrainians clearly would have been -- it would've been confusing, right?

KURT VOLKER [04:22:16.320 - 04:22:16.920]: Correct.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:22:16.920 - 04:22:26.840]: Is confusing the right word, sir? I mean, it would've put them in the position of having to do something inappropriate, right, investigate the Bidens?

KURT VOLKER [04:22:26.840 - 04:22:39.480]: I think confusing is the right word because they were clearly hearing something different from the president in one conversation and different from me as a U.S. special representative, different from Bill Taylor on the ground

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:22:39.480 - 04:22:59.360]: Well, or maybe sir, they understood that investigating charisma and investigating 2016 in fact meant the Bidens, even though you didn't. I mean, in fact at the time you are talking to Yermak and putting those changes in the statement, he had talked to Sondland, right, at the same time. And so the point being that they were put in an impossible position.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:22:59.360 - 04:23:09.560]: They were being asked to do something inappropriate and you now know that, right: and you would have -- you would have raised your own objections. Is that fair to say?

KURT VOLKER [04:23:09.560 - 04:23:31.440]: Well, I know we were asked in the phone call to do that in the conversations that I had with the Ukrainians, we were not asking them to do that. And even at that point, the Ukrainians, perhaps with the knowledge of this phone, call, which I did not have knowledge of at the time is that we just don't want to go there.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:23:31.440 - 04:23:39.080]: Right. And so in retrospect though, you would have raised objections. You would've said it was inappropriate for the president

KURT VOLKER [04:23:39.080 - 04:23:39.720]: -- Right

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:23:39.720 - 04:23:40.120]: -- To do this.

KURT VOLKER [04:23:40.120 - 04:23:40.960]: Correct.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:23:40.960 - 04:23:54.280]: And Mr. Morrison, can I just ask you, sir, so you -- I'm stuck on this issue of -- of you didn't see anything wrong with the call, but you went straight to NSC legal to report it. Is that your testimony to us today?

TIM MORRISON [04:23:54.280 - 04:23:55.640]: Yes, sir.

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [04:23:55.640 - 04:23:59.200]: Thank you, sir. I yield back.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:23:59.200 - 04:24:00.160]: Ms. Demings.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:24:00.160 - 04:24:33.600]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Morrison and to both of you, thank you so much for your service, thanks for being here. It's been a long day. Mr. Morrison, just a follow-up on the question from my colleague, you responded earlier to a series of questions about the call and basically saw nothing wrong with it. Yet, you skipped your chain of command to go to legal counsel to find out, I guess, to find out what to do because you were concerned about the political fallout, not about anything being inappropriate or wrong with the call.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:24:33.600 - 04:24:34.680]: Is that correct?

TIM MORRISON [04:24:34.680 - 04:24:38.120]: Ma'am, I don't agree with the premise, no.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:24:38.120 - 04:24:53.640]: Okay, could you tell me why you felt the need, you sought nothing basically wrong with the call, yet you skipped your chain of command to go to counsel because of what? What was the reason for that?

TIM MORRISON [04:24:53.640 - 04:25:03.200]: I don't know that I -- again, I don't agree with the premise, ma'am. I don't think I did skip my chain of command. If I had seen something wrong, I would have

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:25:03.200 - 04:25:06.760]: -- And who do you -- who is your direct report?

TIM MORRISON [04:25:06.760 - 04:25:11.760]: The deputy national security advisor.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:25:11.760 - 04:25:14.240]: And the name of the person?

TIM MORRISON [04:25:14.240 - 04:25:16.560]: Dr. Charles Kupperman.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:25:16.560 - 04:25:25.640]: Okay, Dr. Kupperman. Did you speak with him before you spoke with legal counsel?

TIM MORRISON [04:25:25.640 - 04:25:26.680]: No. No ma'am.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:25:26.680 - 04:25:31.880]: But you don't feel you skipped your chain of command in doing so? Going directly to counsel?

TIM MORRISON [04:25:31.880 - 04:25:52.480]: Ma'am, if I may, I viewed my engagement with the NSC like legal advisor as one largely focused on administrative matters. I was interested in locking down the transcript. That's an administrative matter. I was interested in making sure that the legal advisor was aware of the call because I didn't see anybody from the legal advisor's office

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:25:52.480 - 04:26:03.120]: -- And why were you so concerned about the legal advisor being aware of this call that you saw nothing basically wrong with the substance of or content of the call?

TIM MORRISON [04:26:03.120 - 04:26:16.240]: Because I -- I did not see anybody from the legal advisor's office in the listening room and I wanted to make sure somebody from that legal advisor's office was aware and I wanted to make sure it was a senior person.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:26:16.240 - 04:26:21.000]: And what is it that you wanted them to be aware of specifically?

TIM MORRISON [04:26:21.000 - 04:26:27.880]: I wanted them to -- to be aware of the call because I wanted them to know what had transpired.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:26:27.880 - 04:26:38.440]: What concerned you to the point where you wanted them to know what had transpired that you went directly to legal counsel to inform them of?

TIM MORRISON [04:26:38.440 - 04:26:48.240]: My -- my equivalent, the head of NSC legal was -- was and is John Eisenberg. He was my equivalent in that position. I wouldn't go to somebody subordinate to him, I would go to him.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:26:48.240 - 04:26:54.920]: Didn't you testify earlier that you were concerned about the political fallout based on the political climate in DC?

TIM MORRISON [04:26:54.920 - 04:26:57.160]: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:26:57.160 - 04:27:00.800]: Okay, all right. And so how long have you supervised Lieutenant Colonel Vindman?

TIM MORRISON [04:27:00.800 - 04:27:10.160]: Ma'am, approximately I guess not proximally, July 15 to October 31 or so.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:27:10.160 - 04:27:19.640]: All right, thank you. Ambassador Volker, you testified that you believed congressional pressure helped unfreeze the security assistance being released. Do you still stand by that testimony today?

KURT VOLKER [04:27:19.640 - 04:27:35.520]: I believe it was important. I met with staff members of the Senate armed services committee. I then saw the letter that several senators signed and sent to Chief of Staff Mulvaney and I was briefed about the possibility of a couple of phone calls from some senior members at that Senate as well.

VAL B. DEMINGS [04:27:35.520 - 04:27:39.200]: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield my remaining time to you.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:27:39.200 - 04:27:57.160]: I thank the gentle woman for yielding. Ambassador Volker I just wanted to follow up on a couple of questions about Ukrainians not being aware of the a being withheld. You are aware I am sure of the testimony of Colonel Vindman that in fact he was contacted by someone within the Ukrainian embassy who was concerned about the whole [Inaudible] becoming public?

KURT VOLKER [04:27:57.160 - 04:28:00.560]: I -- I was not aware of that but I take that.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:28:00.560 - 04:28:22.640]: Are you aware of Ms. Croft's testimony in transcripts that have been released that in fact the Ukrainians found out quite quickly after the hold was placed in July that she was impressed with Ukrainian tradecraft and that the Ukrainians had a reason to keep it silent and not make it public?

KURT VOLKER [04:28:22.640 - 04:28:23.320]: I saw that in her testimony.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:28:23.320 - 04:28:27.320]: You don't have any reason to question whether in fact that testimony was accurate do you?

KURT VOLKER [04:28:27.320 - 04:28:29.400]: No, I don't.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:28:29.400 - 04:28:50.960]: So the Ukrainians didn't find out before it was public at least according to these two witnesses but nevertheless the Ukrainians certainly found out it was public when it was published in the newspaper, right?

KURT VOLKER [04:28:50.960 - 04:28:54.680]: That is correct on August 29.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:28:54.680 - 04:29:06.160]: And at the time they found out from the newspaper they still hadn't have the White House meeting and they still didn't have the aid and at that point they had already have the conversation with the President in which he asked them to investigate the Bidens, correct?

KURT VOLKER [04:29:06.160 - 04:29:06.880]: That is correct.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:29:06.880 - 04:29:08.600]: Mr. Krishnamoorthi?

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:29:08.600 - 04:29:28.920]: Good evening to both of you and thank you for your service. Ambassador Volker on page 7 of your opening statement today you said sense event surrounding your earlier testimony on October 3 quote on quote a great deal of additional information, perspectives have come to light. I have learned many things that I did not know at the time or the events in question, correct?

KURT VOLKER [04:29:28.920 - 04:29:30.600]: Yes, that is correct.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:29:30.600 - 04:29:36.480]: That includes conversations that occurred as well as meetings that occurred of which you weren't a part, correct?

KURT VOLKER [04:29:36.480 - 04:29:36.920]: That is correct.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:29:36.920 - 04:29:40.640]: Sir, you obviously were not a part of the July 25 call, is in that right?

KURT VOLKER [04:29:40.640 - 04:29:41.520]: That is correct.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:29:41.520 - 04:29:52.400]: You were not aware that Ambassador Sondland according to your opening statement had a call with President Trump on July 26, correct?

KURT VOLKER [04:29:52.400 - 04:29:54.400]: That is great.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:29:54.400 - 04:30:06.040]: On September 1 you weren't present for the sidebar meeting between Ambassador Sondland and special advisor Yermak, isn't that right?

KURT VOLKER [04:30:06.040 - 04:30:07.080]: That is correct.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:30:07.080 - 04:30:23.880]: And you certainly weren't part of the phone call between Ambassador Taylor and Ambassador Sondland in which Ambassador Sondland according to multiple -- multiple people now said that everything a White House meeting as well as military aid were dependent on public announcements of investigations, isn't that right?

KURT VOLKER [04:30:23.880 - 04:30:24.920]: That is correct.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:30:24.920 - 04:30:41.480]: And certainly sir you weren't part of the phone call on September 7 between Ambassador Sondland and President Trump in which President Trump insisted that President Zelensky go to a mic and publicly announce investigations of President Trump's domestic rival, isn't that right?

KURT VOLKER [04:30:41.480 - 04:30:42.560]: That is correct.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:30:42.560 - 04:30:57.160]: And certainly you weren't part of the September 8 phone call between Ambassador Sondland and Ambassador -- I am sorry President Trump where President Trump again insist that these announcements have to happen, isn't that right?

KURT VOLKER [04:30:57.160 - 04:30:58.280]: That is correct.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:30:58.280 - 04:31:10.520]: Sir, you say that you weren't a witness to any kind of quid pro quo or conditionality between military assistance and investigations, what someone called missiles for misinformation today, isn't that right?

KURT VOLKER [04:31:10.520 - 04:31:11.400]: That is correct.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:31:11.400 - 04:31:26.080]: But sir, you weren't present for many if not all of the phone calls and conversations where these alleged incidents of quid pro quo occurred, isn't that right?

KURT VOLKER [04:31:26.080 - 04:31:26.880]: That is correct.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:31:26.880 - 04:31:37.600]: Sir, let me turn your attention to another topic that has come up today or actually a came up last Friday. You have high regard for Ambassador Yovanovitch, correct?

KURT VOLKER [04:31:37.600 - 04:31:38.520]: Yes, I do.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:31:38.520 - 04:31:48.200]: I presume that you were aware that as the ambassador was testifying President Trump actually tweeted very disparaging remarks about her, right?

KURT VOLKER [04:31:48.200 - 04:31:50.520]: Yes, I saw that moment.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:31:50.520 - 04:31:56.080]: And I presume that you disapprove of those types of tweets, correct?

KURT VOLKER [04:31:56.080 - 04:31:58.160]: Yes, I don't think that is appropriate.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:31:58.160 - 04:32:04.680]: You have supervised many, many people over the years during your career in the foreign service, right?

KURT VOLKER [04:32:04.680 - 04:32:05.800]: Yes, I have.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:32:05.800 - 04:32:11.320]: And you would never do that to one of your direct reports or anybody who worked in your organization, right?

KURT VOLKER [04:32:11.320 - 04:32:11.960]: No, I would not.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:32:11.960 - 04:32:13.400]: It is just wrong.

KURT VOLKER [04:32:13.400 - 04:32:20.120]: I believe that even when you feel like you need to criticize criticism is private, praises public.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:32:20.120 - 04:32:32.400]: And I also believe that you are a man of honor and you would not attack a veteran, you would not attack someone who is currently serving in the military who is doing their duty, correct?

KURT VOLKER [04:32:32.400 - 04:32:35.200]: I respect the service of our members uniform.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:32:35.200 - 04:32:41.800]: In fact there is a certain man that we both admire, the late Senator John McCain.

KURT VOLKER [04:32:41.800 - 04:32:42.040]: Yes.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:32:42.040 - 04:32:49.000]: Who unfortunately was attacked not only when he was alive but after he died by the current President, isn't that right?

KURT VOLKER [04:32:49.000 - 04:32:50.120]: That is true.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:32:50.120 - 04:32:54.480]: And I -- I presume that you would disapprove of all of those attacks on John McCain, right?

KURT VOLKER [04:32:54.480 - 04:33:03.560]: Yes, I know John -- I knew John McCain very, very well for a very long time. He is an honorable man and very much a war hero for this country.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:33:03.560 - 04:33:28.040]: Well, today, sir, as Lieutenant Colonel Vindman was testifying our President used the official twitter account of the office of the President to attack Lieutenant Colonel Vindman's credibility. I presume you don't approve of those types of tweets either do you?

KURT VOLKER [04:33:28.040 - 04:33:34.240]: I was not aware of that and -- as with Ambassador Yovanovitch it is not appropriate.

RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [04:33:34.240 - 04:33:40.080]: Thank you, sir. Thank you for your service and thank you Mr. Morrison for yours as well.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:33:40.080 - 04:33:47.320]: That concludes the member questioning. I now recognize Ranking Member for any closing comments he has.

DEVIN NUNES [04:33:47.320 - 04:34:05.680]: Thank you. As the first day of this week's impeachment TV marathon draws to a close I would like to remind the American people what we are watching. The public hearings are the culmination of three years of incessant Democrat efforts to find a crime to impeach the President. First, they have tried to manufacture evidence that the President colluded with Russia.

DEVIN NUNES [04:34:05.680 - 04:34:22.720]: To accomplish this task the DNC and the Clinton campaign worked with the former British spy Christopher Steele. Steele assembled a dossier, a false information on alleging the Trump campaign colluded with Russia. That dossier was largely assembled from Russian and Ukrainian sources that the Democrat contractors work with.

DEVIN NUNES [04:34:22.720 - 04:34:38.840]: Next, they primed their hopes on the work of Robert Mueller. Mueller spent two years and millions of taxpayer dollars seeking evidence of a crime that we know wasn't committed. Mueller's failed -- failure was devastate -- a devastating blow to Democrats who clearly hoped his work to be the basis for the removal of the President.

DEVIN NUNES [04:34:38.840 - 04:34:59.560]: Today we are witnessing the Ukraine hoax, the direct to TV SQL to the Russia collusion hoax. The plot of the Ukraine hoax is hard to follow. It shifts from day to day. First the Democrats claimed they had evidence of quid pro quo, then extortion and witness intimidation, now Democrats are pending their hopes on bribery.

DEVIN NUNES [04:34:59.560 - 04:35:24.400]: Like any good hola -- hol -- Hollywood production Democrats needed a screen test before releasing their latest attack on the President. They have leveraged the secrecy of the House intelligence committee to interview a cast of characters in preparation for these public hearings. With the medias enthusiastic support they have built a narrative based on selectively leaked testimony.

DEVIN NUNES [04:35:24.400 - 04:35:49.520]: Speaker Pelosi and the Democrats on this committee are seeking the truth, they would want to know the answers to the following questions that they refused to ask. To what extent did the whistleblower coordinate with the Democrats on this committee and or his staff. What is the full extent of Ukraine's election meddling against the Trump campaign in 2016? Why did Burisma hire Hunter Biden?

DEVIN NUNES [04:35:49.520 - 04:36:13.440]: And what did he do for them and in his position impact in the U.S. government actions under the Obama administration? The American people are promised a grave and somber impeachment inquiry. Instead they got the salacious spy screen comedy that they have been working on for three years. Good night. See you in the morning.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:36:13.440 - 04:36:46.400]: I thank the gentleman and I thank you both for your testimony today. I would highlight a couple things about what we've heard this afternoon; first, Ambassador Volker, your written testimony in which you say in hindsight I now understand that other saw the idea of investigating possible corruption involving the Ukrainian company Burisma as equivalent to investigating former Vice President Biden.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:36:46.400 - 04:37:11.120]: I saw them is very different, the former being appropriate and unremarkable, the letter being unacceptable. In retrospect, you said, I should have seen that connection differently. And had I done so, I would have raised my own objections. Ambassador, we appreciate your willingness to amend your earlier testimony in light of what you now know.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:37:11.120 - 04:37:57.720]: And I think you have made it very clear that, knowing what you do today, that in fact the president sought an investigation of his political rival, Vice President Biden, that you would not have countenanced any effort to encourage the Ukrainians to engage in such conduct. I appreciate also that you were able to debunk, I hope for the last time, the idea that Joe Biden did something wrong when he, in accordance with U.S. policy, sought to replace a corrupt prosecutor, something that not only the U.S. State Department want to do, not only the European Union wanted, and not only the IMF wanted but was the consensus position of the United States national security infrastructure.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:37:57.720 - 04:38:40.800]: You didn't get a lot of questions about that today as other witnesses did because I think you effectively said that was all nonsense. We appreciate your candor about that. Mr. Morrison, I think what is most remarkable about your testimony is the acknowledgment that immediately after the vice president met with President Zelensky in Warsaw, you witnessed Gordon Sondland meeting with Andriy Yermak, top adviser to President Zelensky, and then immediately thereafter Sondland told you that he had informed the Ukrainians that if they wanted that $400 million in military aid they were going to have to do those investigations that the president wanted.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:38:40.800 - 04:38:59.080]: And you are later informed, and this is also significant as you testify here today, that the -- Ambassador Sondland had a subsequent conversation with President Trump and informed you that it wasn't going to be enough for the Ukrainian prosecutor general to announce the investigations the president wanted.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:38:59.080 - 04:39:25.040]: President Zelensky had to do it himself if he wanted to get that aid, let alone the meeting in the White House. Now, you've been asked to opine on the meaning of the term bribery, although you were asked to opine on the meeting of the terms high crimes and misdemeanors. But bribery, for those watching at home, is the conditioning of official acts in exchange for something of personal value.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:39:25.040 - 04:39:49.880]: The official acts we're talking about here are a White House meeting that President Zelensky desperately sought and, as you have acknowledged, Ambassador Volker, was deeply important to this country at war with Russia to show the United States had this new president's back. That meeting was important. That meeting is an official act.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:39:49.880 - 04:40:32.600]: The military assistance is even more significant because Ukrainians are dying every day in their war with Russia. And so the withholding of military assistance to get these investigations, which you now have acknowledged, Ambassador Volker, was wrong for the president to request, the idea of withholding that military aid to get these political investigations should be anathema to -- repugnant to every American because it means the sacrifice not just of Ukrainian national security, but American national security for the interest of the president personally and politically.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:40:32.600 - 04:40:51.600]: Now, my Republican colleagues, all they seem to be upset about with this is not that the president sought an investigation of his political rival, not that he withheld a White House meeting and $400 million in aid we all passed on a bipartisan basis to pressure Ukraine to do those investigations. Their objection is he got caught.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:40:51.600 - 04:41:12.040]: Their objection is that someone blew the whistle. And they would like this whistleblower identified and the president wants this whistleblower punished. That's their objection, not that the president engaged in this conduct but that he got caught. In their defense is, well, he ended up releasing the aid.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:41:12.040 - 04:41:37.560]: Yes, after he got caught. That doesn't make this any less odious. Now, Americans may be watching this and asking why should the United States care about Ukraine? Why should we care about Ukraine? And this was the import, I think, of the conversation, the now infamous conversation in that Kiev restaurant with Gordon Sondland holding the phone away from his head because the president was talking so loud.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:41:37.560 - 04:42:03.600]: What does the president asked in that call the day after the now infamous call he had with Zelensky? What does he ask on that cell phone call? Not whether the Rata had passed some new anticorruption reform. No; are the Ukrainians going to do the investigation, meaning into Biden. And Sondland's answer is they're going to do it. They'll do essentially anything the president wants.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:42:03.600 - 04:42:25.000]: What's more telling is the conversation, I think, that Sondland has with the foreign service officer, Holmes, afterwards, in which the president says basically Donald Trump doesn't give a expletive about Ukraine. He cares about the big things. And Mr. Holmes says, well, Ukraine's at war with the Russia -- with the Russians.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:42:25.000 - 04:42:49.560]: That's kind of a big thing. And Sondland's answer is no, no, he cares about big things that affect his personal interests. This is why American should care about this. Americans should care about what happens to our allies who are dying, and American should care about their own national security and their own president and their own Constitution.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:42:49.560 - 04:43:13.760]: And they will need to ask themselves, as we will have to ask ourselves in Congress, are we prepared to accept that a president of the United States can leverage official acts, military assistance, White House meetings, to get an investigation of a political rival. Are we prepared to say, well, you know, I guess that's just what we should expect in a president of the United States?

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:43:13.760 - 04:43:35.040]: I don't think we want to go there. I don't think our founding fathers would have wanted us to go there. Indeed, I think when the founding fathers provided a remedy, that remedy being impeachment, they had the very concern that a president of the United States may betray the national security interests of the country for personal interests.

ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:43:35.040 - 04:44:02.360]: They put that remedy in the Constitution not because they wanted to willy-nilly overturn elections. No, because they wanted a powerful anticorruption mechanism when that corruption came from the highest office in the land. We are adjourned. I asked the audience to please allow the witnesses to leave the room before they exit.