Transcript: Impeachment Hearing, Day 4 (Morning): Gordon Sondland November 20, 2019 @ 09:00 am ET ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:00:00.000 - 00:00:39.120]: The Committee will come to order. Good morning, everyone. This is the fifth in a series of public hearings the Committee will be holding as part of the House of Representatives impeachment inquiry. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. There is a quorum present. We will proceed today in the same fashion as our other hearings. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:00:39.120 - 00:00:39.120]: I'll make an opening statement, and then Ranking Member Nunes will have the opportunity to make a statement. And we will turn to our witness for an opening statement and then to questions. For audience members, we welcome you and respect your interest in being here. In turn, we ask for your respect as we proceed with today's hearing. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:00:39.120 - 00:00:42.800]: It is the intention of the Committee to proceed without disruptions. As chairman, I'll make all necessary and appropriate steps to maintain order and to ensure the committee is run in accordance with House rules and House Resolution 660. With that, I now recognize myself to give an opening statement in the impeachment inquiry into Donald J. Trump, the 45th president of the United States. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:00:42.800 - 00:01:43.280]: This morning we will hear from Gordon Sondland, the American ambassador to the European Union. We are here today as part of the House of Representatives impeachment inquiry because President Donald Trump sought to condition military aid to Ukraine in an Oval Office meeting with the new Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, in exchange for politically-motivated investigations that Trump believed would help his reelection campaign. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:01:43.280 - 00:01:43.400]: The first investigation was of a discredited conspiracy theory that Ukraine, not Russia, was responsible for interfering in the 2016 election. The second investigation that Trump demanded into -- was into a political rival that he apparently feared most, Joe Biden. Trump sought to weaken Biden and to refute the fact that his own election campaign in 2016 had been helped by Russian hacking and dumping operation and Russian social media campaign directed by Vladimir Putin to help Trump. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:01:43.400 - 00:04:39.120]: Trump's scheme undermined military and diplomatic support for a key ally and undercut U.S. anticorruption efforts in Ukraine. Trump put his personal and political interests above those of the United States. As Ambassador Sondland would later tell career Foreign Service Officer David Holmes immediately after speaking to the president, Trump did not give a expletive about Ukraine. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:04:39.120 - 00:04:59.240]: He cares about big stuff that benefits him like the Biden investigations that Rudy Giuliani was pushing. Ambassador Sondland was a skilled dealmaker, but in trying to satisfy a directive from the president found himself increasingly embroiled in an effort to press the new Ukrainian president that deviated sharply from the norm in both terms of policy and process. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:04:59.240 - 00:05:23.560]: In February, Ambassador Sondland traveled to Ukraine on his first official trip to that country. While in Kiev, he met with then U.S. ambassador Marie Yovanovitch and found her to be an excellent diplomat with a deep command of Ukrainian internal dynamics. On April 21, Zelensky was elected president of Ukraine and spoke to President Trump who congratulated him and said he would look into attending Zelensky's inauguration, but pledged to send someone at a very, very high level. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:05:23.560 - 00:05:23.640]: Between the time of that call and the inaugural on May 20, Trump's attitude towards -- attitude towards Ukraine hardened. On May 13 the president ordered Vice President Mike Pence not to attend Zelensky's inauguration, opting instead to dispatch the self-dubbed three amigos, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, Ambassador Sondland and Ambassador Kurt Volker, the special representative for Ukraine negotiations. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:05:23.640 - 00:05:23.640]: After returning from the inauguration, members of the U.S. delegation briefed Trump on their encouraging first interactions with the new Ukrainian administration. They urged the president to meet with Zelensky, but the president's reaction was decidedly hostile. The president's order was clear, however, talk with Rudy. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:05:23.640 - 00:05:23.720]: During this meeting, Ambassador Sondland first became aware of what Giuliani and the president were really interested in. This whole thing was sort of a continuum, he testified at his deposition, starting at May -- at the May 23 meeting, ending up at the end of the line when the transcript of the call came out. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:05:23.720 - 00:05:23.720]: It was a continuum, he would explain, that became more insidious over time. The three amigos were disappointed with Trump's directives to engage Giuliani but vowed to press ahead. Ambassador Sondland testified, we could abandon the goal of a White House meeting for President Zelensky, which the group deemed crucial for U.S. Ukrainian relations, or we could do as President Trump directed and talk to Mr. Giuliani to address the president's concerns. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:05:23.720 - 00:08:01.560]: We chose the latter path. In the coming weeks, Ambassador Sondland got more clearly involved in Ukraine policy making, starting with the June 4 U.S. mission to the EU independence day in Brussels one month early. Secretary Perry, Ulrich Brechbuhl and the State Department counsel -- State Department counsel and Sondland met with President Zelensky whom Solomon had invited personally on the margins of the event. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:08:01.560 - 00:08:50.680]: On June 10, 2019, Secretary Perry organized a conference call with Sondland, then national security advisor John Bolton, Volker and others. They reviewed Ukraine's strategy with Bolton and decided that Perry, Sondland and Volker would assist Ambassador Bill Taylor, the new acting ambassador in Kiev, on Ukraine and discuss Trump's desire for Rudy Giuliani to be somehow involved. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:08:50.680 - 00:08:50.680]: At the end of the call, according to Sondland, we all felt very comfortable with the strategy moving forward. Two weeks later on June 27 Ambassador Sondland called Taylor to say that, quote, Zelensky needed to make clear to President Trump that he was not standing in the way of investigations. On July 10, Ambassador Sondland and other U.S. officials met at the White House with a group of U.S. and Ukrainian officials. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:08:50.680 - 00:08:50.680]: Participants in the meeting have told us that Ambassador Sondland invoked acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney and said that the White House meetings sought by the Ukrainian president with Trump would happen only if Ukraine undertook certain investigations. National Security Advisor Bolton abruptly ended the meeting upon hearing this. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:08:50.680 - 00:08:50.680]: Undeterred, Sondland brought the Ukrainian delegation downstairs to another part of the White House and was more explicit. According to witnesses, Ukraine needed to investigate the Biden's or Burisma and the 2016 election interference if they wanted to get a meeting at all. Following this meeting in July, Bolton said that he would not be part of whatever drug deal Sondland and Mulvaney are cooking up on this. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:08:50.680 - 00:08:50.760]: Sondland continued to press for a meeting, but he and others were willing to settle for a phone call as an intermediate step. On July 21, Taylor texted Sondland that, quote, President Zelensky is sensitive about Ukraine being taken seriously, not merely as an instrument of Washington domestic reelection politics. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:08:50.760 - 00:10:47.880]: Sondland -- responded, absolutely, but we need to get the conversation started and the relationship built irrespective of the pretext so that Zelensky and Trump could meet and all of this will be fixed. On July 25, the day of the Trump-Zelensky call, Volker had lunch in Kiev with a senior aide to Ukrainian President Zelensky and later texted the aide to say that he had heard from the White House, assuming President Zelensky convinces Trump he will investigate, get to the bottom of what happened in 2016, we will nail down date for visit to Washington. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:10:47.880 - 00:10:47.880]: Good luck. Ambassador Sondland spoke to President Trump a few minutes before the call was placed but was not on the call. During that now infamous phone call with Zelensky, Trump responded to the Ukrainian expression of appreciation for U.S. defense support and requests to buy more Javelin antitank missiles by saying, I would like you to do us a favor, though. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:10:47.880 - 00:10:47.880]: Trump asked Zelensky to investigate the discredited 2016 conspiracy theory, and even more ominously, look into the Bidens. Neither had been part of the official preparatory material for the call, but they were in Donald Trump's personal interest and the interest of his reelection campaign. And the Ukrainian president knew about both in advance, in part because of Ambassador Volker and Ambassador Sondland's efforts to make him aware of what the president was demanding. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:10:47.880 - 00:10:47.880]: Around this time, Ambassador Sondland became aware of the suspension of security assistance to Ukraine, which had been announced on a secure interagency video conference on July 18, telling us that it was extremely odd that nobody involved in making and implementing policy towards Ukraine knew why the aid had been put on hold. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:10:47.880 - 00:12:33.320]: During August, Sondland participated in conference calls and text messages with Volker and Giuliani and said that the gist of every call was what was going to go in the press statement. In an August 9 text message with Volker, Sondland stated, I think POTUS really wants the deliverable, which was, according to Sondland, a deliverable public statement that President Trump wanted to see or hear before a White House meeting could happen. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:12:33.320 - 00:12:33.320]: On September 1, Ambassador Sondland participated in Vice President Pence's bilateral meeting with Zelensky in Warsaw, during which Zelensky raised the suspended security assistance. Following that meeting, Sondland approached the senior Ukrainian official to tell him that he believed what could help them move the aid was if the Ukrainian prosecutor general would go to the mic and announce that he was opening the Burisma investigation. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:12:33.320 - 00:12:33.320]: Sondland told Taylor that he had made a mistake by telling the Ukrainians that an Oval Office meeting was dependent on a public announcement of investigations. In fact, everything was dependent on such an announcement, including security assistance. But even the announcement by the prosecutor general would not satisfy the president. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:12:33.320 - 00:15:27.800]: On September 7, Sondland spoke to the president and told Tim Morrison and Bill Taylor about the call shortly thereafter. The president said that although this was not a quid pro quo, if President Zelensky did not clear things up in public, we would be at a stalemate. Moreover, an announcement by the prosecutor general would not be enough. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:15:27.800 - 00:15:27.800]: President Zelensky must personally -- must announce personally that he would open the investigations. Sondland told Taylor that President Trump is a businessman. When a businessman is about to sign a check to someone who owes him something, he said, the businessman asks that person to pay up before signing the check. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:15:27.800 - 00:15:27.800]: The check referred to here was the U.S. military assistance to Ukraine, and Ukraine had to pay up with investigations. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:15:27.800 - 00:15:27.800]: Throughout early September Volker and Sondland sought to close the deal on an agreement that Zelensky would announce investigations. After Taylor texted Sondland on September 9, 2019, that I think it is crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign. 16 days later the transcript of the July 25, call was made public in the American people learn the truth of how our President tried to take advantage of a vulnerable ally. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:15:27.800 - 00:15:27.800]: Now it is up to Congress as the people's representatives to determine what response is appropriate. If the President abused his power and invited foreign interference in our elections, if he sought to condition, coerce, extort or prime in ally into conducting investigations to aid his reelection campaign and did so by withholding official acts, a White House meeting or hundreds of millions of dollars of needed military aid it will be up to us to decide whether those acts are compatible with the office of the presidency. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:15:27.800 - 00:15:27.800]: Finally, I want to say a word about the President and Secretary Pompeo's obstruction of this investigation. We have not received a single document from the State Department and as Ambassador Sondland's opening statement today will make clear those documents bear directly on this investigation and this impeachment inquiry. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:15:27.800 - 00:18:31.680]: I think we know now based on a sample of the documents attached to Ambassador Sondland statement that the knowledge of this scheme was far and wide and included among other Secretary of state Pompeo as well as the vice president. We can see why Secretary Pompeo and President Trump have made such a concerted and across the board effort to obstruct this investigation and this impeachment inquiry and I will just say this, they do so at their own peril. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:18:31.680 - 00:18:33.520]: I remind the President that article 3 of the impeachment articles drafted against President Nixon was his refusal to obey the subpoenas of Congress and with that I recognize Ranking Member Nunes for any remarks that he would wish to make. DEVIN NUNES [00:18:33.520 - 00:18:33.520]: I thank the gentleman. As we learned last night -- story time last night we get story time first thing this morning. Ambassador Sondland, welcome. Glad you are here -- I am really not glad you are here but welcome to the fifth day of the circus. As I have noticed -- note -- noted before the Democrats on this committee spent three years accusing President Trump of being a Russian agent. DEVIN NUNES [00:18:33.520 - 00:18:33.520]: In March 2018 after a year-long investigation intelligence committee Republicans issued a 240 page report describing in detail how the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections and making specific recommendations to improve our election security. Announcing the report as a whitewash and accusing Republicans of subverting the investigation the Democrats issued their own report focusing on their now debunked conspiracy theory that the Trump campaign colluded with Russia to hack the elections. DEVIN NUNES [00:18:33.520 - 00:18:33.520]: Notably the Democrats about at the time to present day further quote comprehensive report unquote after they finish their investigation into Trump's treasonous collusion with Russia. For some completely inexplicable reason after the implosion of the Russia hoax the Democrats failed to issue that comprehensive report. DEVIN NUNES [00:18:33.520 - 00:18:33.520]: We are still waiting. This episode shows how the Democrats have exploited the intelligence committee for political purposes for three years culminating in these impeachment hearings and their mania to attack the President. No conspiracy theory is too outlandish for the Democrats. Time and time again they floated the possibility of some far-fetched malfeasance by Trump, declared the dire need to investigate it and suddenly drop the issue and moved on to their next asinine theory. DEVIN NUNES [00:18:33.520 - 00:21:29.440]: A sampling of their accusations and insinuations includes these: Trump is a long time Russian agent as described in the Steele dossier. The Russians gave Trump advanced access to emails stolen by the DNC and the Hillary Clinton campaign. The Trump campaign based some of his activities on these stolen documents. DEVIN NUNES [00:21:29.440 - 00:21:59.720]: Trump received of various materials from the Russians through a Trump campaign aide. Trump laundered Russian money through real estate deals. Trump was blackmailed by Russia through his financial exposure with Deutsche Bank. Trump had a diabolical pon -- plan to build a Trump Tower in Moscow. Trump changed the Republican National Committee platform to hurt Ukraine and benefit Russia. DEVIN NUNES [00:21:59.720 - 00:22:24.760]: The Russians laundered money through the NRA for the Trump campaign. Trump's son-in-law lied about his Russian contacts while obtaining his security clearance. That's a long list of charges, all false and I can go on and on and on but I will spare you for these moments. Clearly these ludicrous accusations don't reflect committee members who are honestly searching for the truth. DEVIN NUNES [00:22:24.760 - 00:22:49.120]: They are the actions of partisan extremists who hijacked the intelligence committee, transformed it into the impeachment committee; abandoned its core oversight functions and turned it into a beachhead for ousting and elected President from office. You have to keep that history in mind as you consider the Democrats latest catalog of suppose it Trump outrages. DEVIN NUNES [00:22:49.120 - 00:23:11.760]: Granted a friendly call with the Ukrainian President wouldn't seem to rise to the same level as being a Russian agent but the Democrats were running out of time. If they waited any longer there impeachment circus would intervene with their own candidates 2020 campaigns. So you have to give them points for creativity in selling this absurdity as an impeachable offense. DEVIN NUNES [00:23:11.760 - 00:23:41.160]: All of this explains why the Democrats have gathered zero Republican support in the house of representatives for their impeachment crusade. In fact, the vote we held was a bi -- bipartisan vote against this impeachment inquiry. Speaker Pelosi, Chairman Schiff and Chairman Nadler, the key figures behind this impeachment crusade, all proclaim that impeachment is so damaging to the contrary that it can only proceed with bipartisan support. DEVIN NUNES [00:23:41.160 - 00:24:13.720]: Are those declarations suddenly no longer true? Did impeachment become less divisive? Of course not. They know exactly what kind of damage they are inflicting on this nation but they have passed the point of no return. After three years of preparation work much of it spearheaded by the Democrats on this committee using all of the tools of Congress to accuse, investigate, and died and smear the President they stoked a frenzy amongst their most fanatical supporters that they can no longer control. DEVIN NUNES [00:24:13.720 - 00:24:34.200]: Ambassador Sondland you are here today to be smeared but you will make it through it and I appreciate your service to this country and I am sorry that you have had to go through this. In closing, the Democrats have zeroed in on anonymous whistleblower complaint that was cooked up in cooperation with the Democrats on this very committee. DEVIN NUNES [00:24:34.200 - 00:24:59.760]: They lied to the American people about that cooperation and refused to let us question the whistleblower to discover the truth. Meanwhile the Democrats lash out against anyone who questions or cast doubt on this spectacle. When Ukrainian President Zelensky denies anything improper happened on the phone call the Democrats say that he's a liar. DEVIN NUNES [00:24:59.760 - 00:25:31.080]: When journalist report on the Ukraine election meddling and Hunter Biden's position on the board of corrupt Ukrainian companies the Democrats label them conspiracy theorist. When the Democrats can't get any traction for their allegations of quid pro quo they move the goalpost and accuse the President of extortion, then bribery and that last resort obstruction of justice. DEVIN NUNES [00:25:31.080 - 00:26:01.040]: The American people sent us to Washington to solve problems not to wage scorched earth political warfare against the other party. This impeachment is not helping the American people, it is not a legitimate use of taxpayer dollars and it is definitely not improving our national security. Finally the Democrats fake outrage that President Trump used his own channel to communicate with Ukraine. DEVIN NUNES [00:26:01.040 - 00:26:35.120]: I will remind my friends on the other side of the aisle that our first President George Washington directed his own diplomatic channels to secure a treaty with Great Britain. If my Democratic colleagues were around in 1794 they would probably want to impeach him too. Mr. Chairman this morning we have transmitted to you a letter exercising our rights under House Resolution 660 to subpoena documents and witnesses. DEVIN NUNES [00:26:35.120 - 00:27:09.120]: We take this step because you have failed to ensure fairness and objectivity in this inquiry. As such we need to subpoena Hunter Biden and the whistleblower for closed-door depositions as well as relevant documents from the DNC, Hunter Biden's firm Rosemont Seneca and the whistleblower. In the interest of some basic level of fairness we expect you to concur with the subpoenas and I will submit that letter for the record and yield back the balance of my time. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:27:09.120 - 00:27:34.760]: I thank the gentleman. We are joined this afternoon by Ambassador Gordon Sondland. I'm sorry, this morning. It was a long day yesterday. Gordon Sondland is the U.S. Representative to the European Union with the rank of Ambassador. Before joining the State Department, Ambassador Sondland was the founder and CEO of Providence Hotels, a national owner and operator of full Service Hotels. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:27:34.760 - 00:27:56.080]: Also prior to his government service, Ambassador Sondland was engaged in charitable enterprises. Two final points before our witness is sworn. First, witness depositions as part of this inquiry were in unclassified -- were unclassified in nature and all open hearings will also be held at the unclassified level. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:27:56.080 - 00:28:29.400]: Any information that may touch on classified information will be addressed separately. Second, Congress will not tolerate any reprisal, threat of reprisal, or attempt to retaliate against any U.S. government official for testifying before Congress, including you or any of your colleagues. If you would please rise and raise your right hand, I will begin by swearing you in. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Let the record show the witness has answered in the affirmative. ADAM B. SCHIFF [00:28:29.400 - 00:28:49.040]: Thank you, and please be seated. The microphone is sensitive, so please speak directly into it. Without objection, your written statement will be made part of the record. And with that, Ambassador Sondland, please you are now recognized for your opening statement. GORDON SONDLAND [00:28:49.040 - 00:29:08.720]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, ranking member Nunes. I appreciate the opportunity to speak again to the members of this committee. First, let me offer my thanks to the men and women of the U.S. Department of State who have committed their professional lives to support the foreign-policy work of the United States. GORDON SONDLAND [00:29:08.720 - 00:29:34.600]: In particular, I want to thank my staff at that U.S. mission to the European Union. Your integrity, dedication, and hard work often performed without public acclaim or recognition serve as a shining example of true public service, and I am personally grateful to work beside you each and every day. It is my honor to serve as that U.S. ambassador to the European Union. GORDON SONDLAND [00:29:34.600 - 00:29:55.600]: The U.S. mission to the EU is the direct link between the United States and the European Union and its members, America's longest standing allies and one of the largest economic blocks in the world. Every day, I worked to support a strong united and peaceful Europe. Strengthening our ties with Europe serves both American and European goals as we together promote political stability and economic prosperity around the world. GORDON SONDLAND [00:29:55.600 - 00:30:32.320]: I expect that few Americans have heard my name before these events, so before I begin my substantive testimony, please let me share some of my personal background. My parents fled Europe during the Holocaust. Escaping the atrocities of that time, my parents left Germany for Uruguay and then, in 1953, immigrated to Seattle, Washington, where I was born and raised. GORDON SONDLAND [00:30:32.320 - 00:31:01.840]: Like so many immigrants, my family was eager for freedom and hungry for opportunity. They raised my sister and me to be humble, hard-working, and patriotic, and I am forever grateful for the sacrifices they made on our behalf. Public service has always been important to me. As a lifelong Republican, I've contributed to initiatives of both Republican and Democratic demonstrations. GORDON SONDLAND [00:31:01.840 - 00:31:38.880]: In 2003, I served as a member of the transition team for Oregon Democratic governor Ted Kulongoski. Governor Kulongoski also appointed me to serve on various statewide boards. In 2007, President George W. Bush appointed me as a member of the commission on White House fellows. I worked with President Bush on charitable events for his foundations of military service initiative and I also worked briefly with former Vice President Joe Biden's office in connection with the vice president's nationwide anticancer initiative at a local Northwest Hospital. GORDON SONDLAND [00:31:38.880 - 00:32:07.120]: And of course, the highest honor in my public life came when President Trump asked me to serve as the United States ambassador to the European Union. The Senate confirmed me as an ambassador on a bipartisan voice vote and I assumed the role in Brussels on July 9, 2018. Although today is my first public testimony on the Ukraine matters, this is not my first time cooperating with this committee. GORDON SONDLAND [00:32:07.120 - 00:32:28.200]: As you know, I've already provided 10 hours of deposition testimony and I did so despite directives from the White House and the State Department that I refuse to appear, as many others have done. I agreed to testify because I respect the gravity of the moment, and I believe I have an obligation to account fully for my role in these events. GORDON SONDLAND [00:32:28.200 - 00:32:48.560]: But I also must acknowledge that this process has been challenging and, in many respects, less than fair. I have not had access to all of my phone records, State Department emails, and many, many other State Department documents. And I was told I could not work with my EU staff to pull together the relevant files and information. GORDON SONDLAND [00:32:48.560 - 00:33:15.000]: Having access to that State Department materials would have been very helpful to me in trying to reconstruct with whom I spoke and met and when and what was said. As ambassador, I've had hundreds of meetings and calls with individuals, but I'm not a notetaker or a memo writer. Never have been. My job requires that I speak with heads of state, senior government officials, members of the cabinet, the president, almost each and every day. GORDON SONDLAND [00:33:15.000 - 00:33:39.920]: Talking with foreign leaders might be memorable to some people, but this is my job. I do it all the time. My lawyers and I have made multiple requests to the State Department and the White House for these materials. Yet, these materials were not provided to me and they have also refused to share these materials with this committee. GORDON SONDLAND [00:33:39.920 - 00:34:11.720]: These documents are not classified and, in fairness, and in fairness, should have been made available. In the absence of these materials, my memory admittedly has not been perfect, and I have no doubt that a more fair, open, and orderly process of allowing me to read the State Department records and other materials would have made this process far more transparent. GORDON SONDLAND [00:34:11.720 - 00:34:49.120]: I don't intend to repeat my prior opening statement or attempt to summarize 10 hours of previous deposition testimony. However, a few critical points have been obscured by noise over the last few days and weeks, and I'm worried that the bigger picture is being ignored, so let me make a few key points. First, Secretary Perry, Ambassador Volker, and I worked with Mr. Rudy Giuliani on Ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the United States. GORDON SONDLAND [00:34:49.120 - 00:35:18.440]: We did not want to work with Mr. Giuliani. Simply put, we were playing the hand we were dealt. We all understood that if we refused to work with Mr. Giuliani, we would lose a very important opportunity to cement relations between the United States and Ukraine, so we followed the president's orders. Second, although we disagreed with the need to involve Mr. Giuliani, at the time, we did not believe that his role was improper. GORDON SONDLAND [00:35:18.440 - 00:35:40.400]: As I previously testified, if I had known of all of Mr. Giuliani's dealings or his associations with individuals, some of whom are now under criminal indictment, I personally would not have acquiesced to his participation. Still, given what we knew at the time, what we were asked to do, did not appear to be wrong. GORDON SONDLAND [00:35:40.400 - 00:36:08.480]: Third, let me say precisely because we did not think that we were engaging in improper behavior we made every effort to ensure that the relevant decision-makers at the National Security Council and the State Department knew the important details of our efforts. The suggestion that we were engaged in some irregular or rogue diplomacy is absolutely false. GORDON SONDLAND [00:36:08.480 - 00:36:43.480]: I have now identified certain State Department emails and messages that provide contemporaneous support for my view. These emails show that the leadership at the State Department, the National Security Council, and the White House were all informed about the Ukraine efforts from May 23rd, 2019 until the security aid was released on September 11th, 2019. I will quote from some of those messages with you shortly. GORDON SONDLAND [00:36:43.480 - 00:37:16.440]: Fourth, as I testified previously -- as I testified previously, Mr. Giuliani's requests were a quid pro quo for a ranging a White House visit for President Zelensky. Mr. Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing the investigations of the 2016 election, DNC server, and Burisma. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the United States, and we knew these investigations were important to the president. GORDON SONDLAND [00:37:16.440 - 00:37:48.800]: Fifth, in July and August 2019, we learned that the White House had also suspended security aid to Ukraine. I was adamantly opposed to any suspension of aid. I was adamantly suppose -- adamantly opposed to any suspension of aid, as the Ukrainians needed those funds to fight against Russian aggression. I tried diligently to ask why the aid was suspended but I never received a clear answer; still haven't to this day. GORDON SONDLAND [00:37:48.800 - 00:38:19.960]: In the absence of any credible explanation for the suspension of aid, I later came to believe that the resumption of security aid would not occur until there was a public statement from Ukraine committing to the investigations of the 2016 elections and Burisma, as Mr. Giuliani had demanded. I shared concerns of the potential quid pro quo regarding the security aid with Senator Ron Johnson, and I also shared my concerns with the Ukrainians. GORDON SONDLAND [00:38:19.960 - 00:38:49.200]: Finally, at all times I was acting in good faith. I was acting in good faith. As a presidential appointee, I followed the directions of the president. We worked with Mr. Giuliani because the president directed us to do so. We had no desire to set any conditions. We had no desire to set any conditions on the Ukrainians. GORDON SONDLAND [00:38:49.200 - 00:39:18.360]: Indeed, my own personal view, which I shared repeatedly with others, was that the White House and see cutie -- security assistance should have preceded without preconditions of any kind. We were working to overcome the problems, given the facts as they existed. Our only interest and my only interest was to advance long-standing U.S. policy and to support Ukraine's fragile democracy. GORDON SONDLAND [00:39:18.360 - 00:39:46.360]: Now, let me provide additional details specifically about Ukraine and my involvement. First, my very first days as ambassador to the EU, which was starting back in July 2018, Ukraine has featured prominently in my broader portfolio. Ukraine's political and economic development are critical to the long-standing and long-lasting stability of Europe. GORDON SONDLAND [00:39:46.360 - 00:40:22.640]: Moreover, the conflict in eastern Ukraine and Crimea remains one of the most significant security crisis for Europe and the United States. Our efforts to counterbalance an aggressive Russia depend in substantial part on a strong Ukraine. On April 21st, 2019, Volodymyr Zelensky was elected president of Ukraine in -- in an historic election. GORDON SONDLAND [00:40:22.640 - 00:40:56.040]: With the expressed support of Secretary Pompeo, I attended President Zelensky's inauguration on May 20th as part of the U.S. delegation, which was led by Energy Secretary Rick Perry. The U.S. delegation also included Senator Johnson, Ukraine Special Envoy Volker, and Lieutenant Colonel Alex Vindman, National Security Council. GORDON SONDLAND [00:40:56.040 - 00:41:42.320]: My attendance at President Zelensky's inauguration was not my first involvement with Ukraine. As I testified previously, just four days after assuming my post as ambassador in July 2018, I received an official delegation from the government of then Ukraine president Petro Poroshenko. The meeting took place at the U.S. mission in Brussels and was prearranged by my career EU mission staff, and I have had several meetings since then in Brussels. GORDON SONDLAND [00:41:42.320 - 00:42:18.320]: Later, in February 2019, I worked well with U.S. ambassador Marie Yovanovitch in making my first official visit to Ukraine for a U.S. Navy visit to the strategic Black Sea port of Odessa. And the reason I raise these prior Ukraine activities, the meetings in Brussels, my visit to Odessa, is to emphasize that Ukraine has been a part of my portfolio from my very first days as the U.S. ambassador. GORDON SONDLAND [00:42:18.320 - 00:42:48.360]: Any claim that I somehow muscled my way into the Ukraine relationship is simply false. During the Zelensky inauguration on May 20th, the U.S. delegation developed a very positive view of the Ukraine government. We were impressed by President Zelensky's desire to promote a stronger relationship with the United States. GORDON SONDLAND [00:42:48.360 - 00:43:18.560]: We admired his commitment to reform, and we were excited about the possibility of Ukraine making the changes necessary to support a greater Western economic investment, and we were excited that Ukraine might, after years and years of lip service, finally get serious about addressing its own well-known corruption problems. GORDON SONDLAND [00:43:18.560 - 00:43:55.080]: With that enthusiasm, we returned to the White House on May 23rd to brief President Trump. We advised the president of the strategic importance of Ukraine and the value of strengthening the relationship with President Zelensky. To support this reformer, we asked the White House for two things; first, a working phone call between Presidents Trump and Zelensky; and second, a working Oval Office visit. GORDON SONDLAND [00:43:55.080 - 00:44:24.600]: In our view, both were vital to cementing the U.S./Ukraine relationship, demonstrating support for Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression, and advancing broader U.S. foreign policy interests. Unfortunately, President Trump was skeptical. He expressed concerns that the Ukrainian government was not serious about reform, and he even mentioned that Ukraine tried to take him down in the last election. GORDON SONDLAND [00:44:24.600 - 00:44:50.840]: In response to our persistent efforts in that meeting to change his views, President Trump directed us to "talk with Rudy." We understood that talk with Rudy meant talk with Mr. Rudy Giuliani, the president's personal lawyer. Let me say again, we weren't happy with the president's directive to talk with Rudy. GORDON SONDLAND [00:44:50.840 - 00:45:36.160]: We did not want to involve Mr. Giuliani. I believe then as I do now that the men and women of the State Department, not the president's personal lawyer, should take responsibility for Ukraine matters. Nonetheless, based on the president's direction, we were faced with a choice. We could abandon the efforts to schedule the White House phone call and a White House visit between Presidents Trump and Zelensky, which was unquestionably in our foreign policy interest, or we could do as President Trump had directed and talk with Rudy. GORDON SONDLAND [00:45:36.160 - 00:46:06.320]: We chose the latter course not because we liked it but because it was the only constructive path open to us. Over the course of the next several months, Secretary Perry, Ambassador Volker, and I were in communication with Mr. Giuliani. Secretary Perry volunteered to make the initial calls with Mr. Giuliani given their prior relationship. GORDON SONDLAND [00:46:06.320 - 00:46:13.360]: Ambassador Volker made several of the early calls and generally informed us of what was discussed. GORDON SONDLAND [00:46:13.360 - 00:46:42.520]: I first communicated with Mr. Giuliani in early August, several months later. Mr. Giuliani emphasized that the President wanted a public statement from President Zelensky committing Ukraine to look into the corruption issues. Mr. Giuliani specifically mentioned the 2016 election including the DNC server and Burisma as to topics of importance to the President. GORDON SONDLAND [00:46:42.520 - 00:47:10.880]: We kept the leadership of these state departments and the NSC informed of our activities and that included communications with the Secretary of State Pompeo, his counselor, Ulrich Brechbuhl; his Executive Secretary Lisa Kenna and also communications with Ambassador Bolton, Dr. Phil, Mr. Morrison and their staff at the NSC. They knew what we were doing and why. GORDON SONDLAND [00:47:10.880 - 00:47:44.760]: On July 10, 2019 senior Ukrainian national security officials met with Ambassador Bolton, Ambassador Volker, Dr. Hill, Secretary Perry, myself and several others in Washington DC. During that meeting we all discussed the importance of the two action items I identified earlier. One, a working phone call and two, a White House meeting between presidents Trump and Zelensky. GORDON SONDLAND [00:47:44.760 - 00:48:10.040]: From my perspective the July 10 meeting was a positive step toward accomplishing our shared goals. While I am now aware of accounts of the meeting from Dr. Hill and Lieutenant Colonel Vindman their recollections of those events simply don't square with my own or with those of Ambassador Volker or Secretary Perry. GORDON SONDLAND [00:48:10.040 - 00:48:32.040]: I recall mentioning the prerequisite of investigations me for is a White House call or meeting but I do not recall any yelling or screaming or abrupt terminations as others have said. Instead after the meeting Ambassador Bolton walked outside with our group and we all took some great pictures together outside on the White House lawn. GORDON SONDLAND [00:48:32.040 - 00:48:56.440]: More important, those recollections of protest do not square with the documentary record of our interactions with the NSC in the days and weeks that followed. We kept the NSC apprised of our efforts including specifically our efforts to secure a public statement from the Ukrainians that would satisfy President Trump's concerns. GORDON SONDLAND [00:48:56.440 - 00:49:49.120]: For example, on July 13 and this is three days after that July 10 meeting I emailed Tim Morrison, he had just taken over Dr. Hill's post as the NSC Eurasia director and I met him that day for the first time. I wrote to Mr. Morrison with these words, the call between Zelensky and POTUS, President of the United States, should have been me for 721 which is the parliamentary elections in Ukraine, sole purpose is for Zelensky to give POTUS assurances of new sheriff in town, corruption ending, unbundling moving forward and -- and I emphasize in the hampered investigations will be allowed to move forward transparently. GORDON SONDLAND [00:49:49.120 - 00:50:30.240]: Goal is for POTUS to invite him to oval. Volker, Perry, Bolton and I strongly recommend. Mr. Morrison acknowledged and said thank you and specifically noted that he was tracking these issues. Again, there was no secret regarding moving forward and the discussion of investigations. Moreover I have reviewed other State Department documents, some of which are not currently in the public domain detailing Mr. Giuliani's efforts. GORDON SONDLAND [00:50:30.240 - 00:51:14.520]: For example, on July 10, the very same day that Ambassador Volker, Secretary Perry and I were meeting with the Ukraine officials in Washington Ambassador Taylor received a communication that Mr. Giuliani was still talking with Ukrainian prosecutor Yuriy Lutsenko. In WhatsApp messages with Ambassador Volker and I Ambassador Taylor wrote to us as follows, just had a meeting with Andriy and [Inaudible] referring to Ukraine foreign minister [Inaudible]. Taylor said the Ukrainians were quote very concerned about what Lutsenko told them that according to RG, meaning Rudy Giuliani the Zelensky POTUS meeting will not happen. GORDON SONDLAND [00:51:14.520 - 00:51:43.400]: Volker responded good grief please tell [Inaudible] to let the official U.S. government representatives speak for the U.S. Lutsenko has his own self-interest here. Taylor confirmed that he had communicated that message to the Ukrainians and he added I briefed Ulrich this afternoon on this referring to State Department counselor Ulrich Brechbuhl. GORDON SONDLAND [00:51:43.400 - 00:52:53.480]: Again everyone is in the loop. Three things are critical about this WhatsApp exchange. First, while the Ukrainians were in Washington at the White House Mr. Giuliani was communicating with the Ukrainians without our knowledge. Ambassador Taylor, Ambassador Volker and I were all surprised by this. Second, Mr. Giuliani was communicating with the reportedly corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor Lutsenko and discussing whether a Zelensky Trump meeting was going to happen again without our knowledge and third, with this alarming news ambassador Taylor briefed Ulrich Brechbuhl who is the counselor to Secretary of State Pompeo and even as late as September 24 of this year Secretary Pompeo was directing Kurt Volker to speak with Mr. Giuliani. GORDON SONDLAND [00:52:53.480 - 00:53:18.000]: In a WhatsApp message Kurt Volker told me in part spoke with Rudy per guidance from S, S is the State Department's official designator for the Secretary. Spoke with Rudy per guidance from S. Look, we tried our best to fix the problem while keeping the State Department and the NSC closely apprised of the challenges we faced. GORDON SONDLAND [00:53:18.000 - 00:54:01.320]: On July 25 presidents Trump and Zelensky had their official call. I was not on the call and I don't think I was invited to be on the call. In fact I first read the transcript on September 25, the day it was publicly released. All I had heard at that time was that that the call had gone well. Looking back I find it very odd, very odd that neither I nor ambassador Taylor nor Ambassador Volker ever received a detailed readout of that call with the Biden references. GORDON SONDLAND [00:54:01.320 - 00:54:45.520]: Now there are people who say they had concerns about the call but no one shared any concerns about the call with me at the time which frankly would have been very helpful to know. On July 26, ambassador Taylor, Ambassador Volker and I were all in Kiev to meet with President Zelensky. The timing of that trip immediately after the call between presidents Trump and Zelensky was entirely, entirely coincidental. GORDON SONDLAND [00:54:45.520 - 00:55:28.840]: The key of meetings had been scheduled well before the date that the White House finally fixed the call. During our key of meeting I do not recall President Zelensky discussing the substance of his July 25 call with President Trump nor did he discuss in a request to investigate Vice President Biden wench we all later learned was discussed on the July 25 call and this is consistent with the reported comments from ambassadors Volker and Taylor. GORDON SONDLAND [00:55:28.840 - 00:56:02.320]: After the Zelensky meeting I also met with the Zelensky's senior aid Andriy Yermak. I don't recall the specifics of our conversation but I believe the issue of investigations was probably a part of that agenda or meeting. Also on July 26, shortly after our key of meetings I spoke by phone with President Trump, the White House is finally -- finally shared certain call dates and times with my attorneys confirms this. GORDON SONDLAND [00:56:02.320 - 00:56:35.080]: The call lasted five minutes. I remember I was at a restaurant in Kiev and I have no reason to doubt that this conversation included the subject of investigations. Again, given Mr. Giuliani's demand that President Zelensky make a public statement about investigations I knew that investigations were important to President Trump. GORDON SONDLAND [00:56:35.080 - 00:56:41.800]: We did not discuss any classified information. GORDON SONDLAND [00:56:41.800 - 00:57:12.520]: Other witnesses have recently shared their recollection of overhearing this call. For the most part, I have no reason to doubt their accounts. It's true that the president speaks loudly at times and it's also true, I think we primarily discussed A$AP Rocky. It's true that the president likes to use colorful language. GORDON SONDLAND [00:57:12.520 - 00:57:49.880]: Anyone who has met with him at any reasonable amount of time knows this. While I cannot remember the precise details, again, the White House has not allowed me to see any results of that call and the July 26 call did not strike me as significant at the time. Actually, actually, I would have been more surprised if President Trump had not mentioned investigations, particularly given what we were hearing from Mr. Giuliani about the president's concerns. GORDON SONDLAND [00:57:49.880 - 00:58:21.240]: However, I have no recollection of discussing Vice President Biden or his son on that call or after the call ended. I know that members of this committee frequently framed these complicated issues in the form of a simple question. Was there a quid pro quo? As I testified previously, with regard to the requested White House call and the White House meeting, the answer is yes. GORDON SONDLAND [00:58:21.240 - 00:59:06.360]: Mr. Giuliani conveyed to Secretary Perry, Ambassador Volker, and others that President Trump wanted a public statement from President Zelensky committing to investigations of Burisma and the 2016 election. Mr. Giuliani expressed those requests directly to the Ukrainians and Mr. Giuliani also expressed those requests directly to us. We all understood that these prerequisites for the White House call and the right White House meeting reflected President Trump's desires and requirements. GORDON SONDLAND [00:59:06.360 - 00:59:37.360]: Within by State Department emails, there is a July 19 email. This email was sent. This email was sent to Secretary Pompeo, Secretary Perry, Brian McCormick, who is Secretary Perry's Chief of Staff at the time, Ms. Kenna, who is the acting, pardon me, who is the executive secretariat for Secretary Pompeo, chief of staff Mulvaney, and Mr. Mulvaney's senior advisor, Rob Blair. GORDON SONDLAND [00:59:37.360 - 01:00:26.680]: A lot of senior officials. A lot of senior officials. Here is my exact from that email. "I talked to Zelensky just now. He is prepared to receive protesters call. Will assure him that he intends to run a fully transparent investigation and will turn over every stone. He would greatly appreciate a call prior to Sunday so that he can put out some media about a friendly and productive call, no details, prior to Ukraine election on Sunday." Chief of Staff Mulvaney responded, "I asked the NSC to set it up for tomorrow." Everyone was in the loop. GORDON SONDLAND [01:00:26.680 - 01:00:53.080]: It was no secret. Everyone was informed via email on July 19 days before the presidential call. As I committed communicated to the team, I told President Zelensky in advance that assurances to run a fully transparent investigation and turn over every stone were necessary and his call with President Trump. GORDON SONDLAND [01:00:53.080 - 01:01:46.040]: On July 19 and a WhatsApp message between Ambassador Taylor, Ambassador Volker, and me, Ambassador Volker stated, "Had breakfast with Rudy this morning." That's Ambassador Volker and Rudy Giuliani. "Teeing up call with Yermak Monday." That's Senior advisor on Andriy Yermak. "Must have helped. Most important is for Zelensky to say that he will help investigation and address any specific personnel issues, if there are any." On August 10, the next day, Mr. Yermak texted me. "Once we have a date," which is a date for the White House meeting, "We will call for a press briefing announcing upcoming visit and outlining vision for the reboot of the U.S.-Ukraine relationship. GORDON SONDLAND [01:01:46.040 - 01:02:22.560]: Including, among other things, Burisma and election meddling and investigations." This is from Mr. Yermak back to me. The following day, August 11, and this is critical, I sent an email to Counselor Brechbuhl and Lisa Kenna. Lisa Kenna, was frequently used as the pathway too separate. Secretary Pompeo, as sometimes he preferred to receive his emails through her. GORDON SONDLAND [01:02:22.560 - 01:02:57.880]: She would print them out and put them in front of him. With the subject Ukraine, I wrote, "Mike," referring to Mike Pompeo, "Kurt and I negotiated a statement from Zelensky to be delivered for our review in a day or two. The contacts contents will hopefully make the boss happy enough," the boss being the president, "to authorize an invitation. GORDON SONDLAND [01:02:57.880 - 01:03:52.840]: Zelensky plans to help have a big presser," press conference, "on the openness subject, including specifics next week." All of which referred to the 2016 and the Burisma. Ms. Kenna replied, "Gordon, I'll pass to the secretary. Thank you." Again, everyone was in the loop. Curiously, and this was very interesting to me, on August 26, shortly before his visit to Kiev, Ambassador Bolton's office requested Mr. Giuliani's contact information from me. I sent Ambassador Bolton the information directly. GORDON SONDLAND [01:03:52.840 - 01:04:32.840]: A requested Mr. Giuliani's contact information on August 26. I was first informed that the White House was withholding security aid to Ukraine during conversations with Ambassador Taylor on July 18, 2019. However, as I testified before, I was never able to obtain a clear answer regarding the specific reason for the hold, whether it was bureaucratic in nature, which often happens, or reflected some other concern in the interagency process. GORDON SONDLAND [01:04:32.840 - 01:05:02.240]: I never participated in any of the subsequent DoD or DOS review meetings that others have described, so I can't speak to what was discussed in those meetings. Nonetheless, before the September 1 Warsaw meeting, that Ukrainians had become aware that security funds had yet to be dispersed. In the absence of any credible explanation for the hold, I came to the conclusion that the aide, like the White House visit, was jeopardized. GORDON SONDLAND [01:05:02.240 - 01:05:35.800]: In preparation for the September 1 Warsaw meeting, I asked Secretary Pompeo whether a face-to-face conversation between Trump and Zelensky would help to break the logjam, and this was when President Trump was still intending to travel to Warsaw. Specifically, on August 22, I emailed Secretary Pompeo directly copying Secretariat Kenna. GORDON SONDLAND [01:05:35.800 - 01:06:16.640]: I wrote, this is my email to Secretary Pompeo, "Should we block time in Warsaw for a short pull aside for POTUS to meet Zelensky? I would ask Zelensky to look him in the eye and tell him that once Ukraine's new Justice folks are in place in mid-September, that Zelensky, he, Zelensky, should be able took move forward publicly and with confidence on those issues of importance to POTUS and the U.S.. Hopefully, that will help break the logjam." The secretary replied, "yes." I followed up the next day asking to get fit 10 to 15 minutes t on the Warsaw schedule for this. GORDON SONDLAND [01:06:16.640 - 01:07:03.280]: I said would like to know when it's locked so that I can tell Zelensky and brief him. Executive Secretary Kenna replied, "I will try for sure." Moreover, given my concerns about the security aid, I have no reason to dispute that portion of Senator Johnson's recent letter in which he recalls conversations he and I had on August 30. By the end of August, my belief was that if Ukraine did something to demonstrate a serious intention to fight corruption and specifically addressing Burisma and that 2016, then they hold on military aid would be lifted. GORDON SONDLAND [01:07:03.280 - 01:07:35.480]: There was a September 1st meeting with President Zelensky in Warsaw. Unfortunately, President Trump's attendance at the Warsaw meeting was canceled due to Hurricane Dorian. Vice President Pence attended instead. I mentioned to Vice President Pence before the meetings with the Ukrainians that I had concerns that the delay in a had become tied to the issue of investigations. GORDON SONDLAND [01:07:35.480 - 01:08:10.400]: I recall mentioning that before the Zelensky meeting. During the actual meeting, President Zelensky raised the issue of security assistance directly with Vice President Pence, and the vice president said that he would speak to President Trump about it. Based on my previous communication with Secretary Pompeo, I felt comfortable sharing my concerns with Mr. Yermak. GORDON SONDLAND [01:08:10.400 - 01:08:46.720]: It was a very, very brief pull aside conversation that happened within a few seconds. I told Mr. Yermak that I believed that the resumption of U.S. aid would likely not occur until Ukraine took some kind of action on the public statement that we had been discussing for many weeks. As my other State Department callings who testified, this security aid was critical to Ukraine's defense and should not have been delayed. GORDON SONDLAND [01:08:46.720 - 01:09:15.840]: I expressed this view to many during this period, but my goal at the time was to do what was necessary to get the aid released, to break the logjam. I believed that the public statement we had been discussing for weeks was essential to advancing that goal. You know, I really regret that the Ukrainians were placed in that predicament, but I do not regret doing what I could to try to break the logjam and to solve the problem. GORDON SONDLAND [01:09:15.840 - 01:10:06.280]: I mentioned at the outset that throughout these events we State Department leadership and others apprised of what we were doing. State Department was fully supportive of our engagement in Ukraine efforts and was aware that a commitment to investigations was among the issues we were pursuing. To provide just two examples, on June 5th, the day after the U.S./EU mission hosted our Independence Day, we did a month early, Acting Assistant Secretary Phil Reeker sent an email to me, to Secretary Perry, and to others forwarding some positive media coverage of President Zelensky's attendance at our event. GORDON SONDLAND [01:10:06.280 - 01:10:41.600]: Mr. Reeker wrote, and I quote, "This headline underscores the importance and timeliness of Zelensky's visit to Brussels and the critical -- and the critical, perhaps historic, role of the dinner and engagement Gordon coordinated. Thank you for your participation and dedication to this effort." Months later, on September 3rd, I sent Secretary Pompeo an email to express my appreciation for his joining a series of meetings in Brussels following the Warsaw trip. GORDON SONDLAND [01:10:41.600 - 01:11:19.280]: I wrote, "Mike, thanks for schlepping to Europe. I think it was really important and the chemistry seems promising; really appreciate it." Secretary Pompeo replied the next day, on Wednesday, September 4th, "All good. You're doing great work. Keep banging away." State Department leadership expressed total support for our efforts to engage the new Ukrainian administration. GORDON SONDLAND [01:11:19.280 - 01:11:45.240]: Look, I've never doubted the strategic value of strengthening our alliance with Ukraine. And at all times -- at all times, our efforts were in good faith and fully transparent to those tasked with overseeing them. Our efforts will reported and approved, and not once do I recall encountering an objection. GORDON SONDLAND [01:11:45.240 - 01:11:56.680]: It remains an honor to serve the people of the United States as their United States ambassador to the European Union. I look forward to answering the committee's questions. Thank you. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:11:56.680 - 01:12:28.280]: We will now proceed to the first round of questions. As detailed in the memo provided to committee members, there'll be 45 minutes of questions conducted by the chairman or majority counsel, followed by 45 minutes for the ranking member or minority counsel. Following that, unless I specify additional equal time for extended questioning, we will proceed under the five-minute rule, and every member will have the chance to ask questions. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:12:28.280 - 01:12:51.840]: I recognize myself or -- or majority counsel for the first round of questions. Mr. Sondland, there's a lot of new material in your opening statement for us to get through, but I want to start with a few top line questions before passing it over to Mr. Goldman. In your deposition, you testified that you found yourself on a continuum that became more insidious over time. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:12:51.840 - 01:12:55.120]: Can you describe what you mean by this continuum of insidiousness? GORDON SONDLAND [01:12:55.120 - 01:13:28.120]: Well, Mr. Chairman, when we left the Oval Office, I believe on May 23rd, the request is very generic for an investigation of corruption in a very vanilla sense and dealing with some of the oligarch problems in Ukraine, which were long-standing problems. And then as time went on, more specific items got added to the menu, including the Burisma and 2016 election meddling specifically, the DNC server specifically. GORDON SONDLAND [01:13:28.120 - 01:13:40.440]: And over this -- over this continuum, it became more and more difficult to secure the White House meeting, because more conditions or being placed on the White House meeting. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:13:40.440 - 01:13:49.800]: And then of course, on July 25th, although you were not privy to the call, another condition was added, that being the investigation of the Bidens. GORDON SONDLAND [01:13:49.800 - 01:13:57.360]: I was not privy to the call and I did not know the -- the condition of -- of investigating the Bidens was a condition, correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:13:57.360 - 01:14:01.280]: You saw that in the call record, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:14:01.280 - 01:14:02.880]: It was not in any record I received. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:14:02.880 - 01:14:03.400]: But when you did -- GORDON SONDLAND [01:14:03.400 - 01:14:03.680]: -- Yes -- ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:14:03.680 - 01:14:04.120]: -- Receive -- GORDON SONDLAND [01:14:04.120 - 01:14:06.680]: -- I saw that in September, correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:14:06.680 - 01:14:21.160]: So, under -- on this continuum, the beginning of the continuum begins on May 23rd when the president instruction to talk to Rudy? GORDON SONDLAND [01:14:21.160 - 01:14:21.920]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:14:21.920 - 01:14:38.840]: And you understood that as a direction by the president, that you needed to satisfy the concerns that Rudy Giuliani would express to you about what the president wanted in Ukraine? GORDON SONDLAND [01:14:38.840 - 01:14:46.040]: Not to me, to the entire group, Volker, Perry, and myself, correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:14:46.040 - 01:15:02.600]: Now, in your opening statement, you confirm that there was a quid pro quo between the White House meeting and the investigations into Burisma and the 2016 election that Giuliani was public and promoting. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:15:02.600 - 01:15:03.240]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:15:03.240 - 01:15:31.120]: And in fact, you say that other senior officials in the State Department and the chiefs of staff's office, including Mick Mulvaney, Secretary Pompeo, were aware of this quid pro quo that, in order to get the White House meeting, there were going to have to be these investigations the president wanted. GORDON SONDLAND [01:15:31.120 - 01:15:31.360]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:15:31.360 - 01:15:37.440]: And those, again, our investigations into 2016 and Burisma/the Bidens. GORDON SONDLAND [01:15:37.440 - 01:15:43.960]: 2016, Burisma. The Bidens did not come up. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:15:43.960 - 01:15:52.720]: But you would ultimately learn that Burisma meant the Bidens when you saw the call record, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:15:52.720 - 01:16:01.360]: Of course. Today I know exactly what it means. I didn't know at the time. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:16:01.360 - 01:16:15.680]: And then on July 26th, you confirm you did indeed have the conversation with President Trump from a restaurant Kiev that David Holmes testified about last week. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:16:15.680 - 01:16:16.240]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:16:16.240 - 01:16:28.640]: And you have no doubt -- no reason to doubt Mr. Holmes' recounting of your conversation with the president? GORDON SONDLAND [01:16:28.640 - 01:16:48.080]: The only part of Mr. Holmes' recounting that I take exception with is I do not recall mentioning the Bidens. That did not enter my mind. It was Burisma and 2016 elections. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:16:48.080 - 01:17:00.320]: You have no reason to believe that Mr. Holmes would make that up if that's what he recalls you saying. You have no reason to question that, do you? GORDON SONDLAND [01:17:00.320 - 01:17:08.080]: I -- I don't recall saying Biden. I never recalled saying Biden. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:17:08.080 - 01:17:18.080]: But the rest of Mr. Holmes' recollection is consistent with your own? GORDON SONDLAND [01:17:18.080 - 01:17:29.880]: Well, I can't testify as to what Mr. Holmes might or might not have heard through the phone. I don't know how he heard the conversation. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:17:29.880 - 01:17:32.120]: Are you familiar with his testimony? GORDON SONDLAND [01:17:32.120 - 01:17:33.600]: Vaguely, yes. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:17:33.600 - 01:17:41.480]: And the only exception you take is to the mention of the name Biden? GORDON SONDLAND [01:17:41.480 - 01:17:42.040]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:17:42.040 - 01:17:59.720]: And I think you said in your testimony this morning that not only is it correct that the president brought up with you investigations on the phone the day after the July 25th call, but that you would have been surprised had he not brought that up. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:17:59.720 - 01:18:15.280]: Right, because we had been hearing about it from Rudy, and we presumed that Rudy was getting it from the president. And so, it seemed like a logical conclusion. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:18:15.280 - 01:18:33.120]: Mr. Holmes also testified that you told him President Trump doesn't care about Ukraine; he only cares about big stuff that relates to him personally. I take it from your comment you don't dispute that part of the conversation. GORDON SONDLAND [01:18:33.120 - 01:18:49.560]: Well, he made that clear in the May 23 meeting, that he was not particularly fond of Ukraine, and we had a lot of heavy lifting to do to get him to engage. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:18:49.560 - 01:18:53.080]: So you don't dispute that part of Mr. Holmes' recollection? GORDON SONDLAND [01:18:53.080 - 01:18:53.400]: No. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:18:53.400 - 01:19:22.080]: In August, when you worked with Rudy Giuliani and a top Ukrainian aide to draft a public state for President Zelensky to issue that includes the announcement of investigations into Burisma, you understood that was required by President Trump before he would grant a White House meeting to President Zelensky? GORDON SONDLAND [01:19:22.080 - 01:19:25.920]: That's correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:19:25.920 - 01:19:29.480]: And the Ukrainians understood that as well? GORDON SONDLAND [01:19:29.480 - 01:19:31.280]: I believe they did. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:19:31.280 - 01:19:38.080]: And you informed Secretary Pompeo about that statement as well? GORDON SONDLAND [01:19:38.080 - 01:19:38.680]: I did. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:19:38.680 - 01:20:13.480]: Later in August you told Secretary Pompeo that President Zelensky would be prepared to tell President Trump that his new justice officials would be able to announce matters of interest to the president, which could break the logjam. When you say matters of interest to the president, you mean the investigations that President Trump wanted. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:20:13.480 - 01:20:15.720]: Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:20:15.720 - 01:20:18.200]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:20:18.200 - 01:20:23.040]: And that involved 2016 and Burisma or the Bidens? GORDON SONDLAND [01:20:23.040 - 01:20:26.080]: 2016 and Burisma. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:20:26.080 - 01:20:32.560]: And you're talking here about breaking the logjam, you're talking about the logjam over the security assistance, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:20:32.560 - 01:20:36.400]: I was talking logjam generically because nothing was moving. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:20:36.400 - 01:20:39.520]: Bit that included the security assistance, did it not? GORDON SONDLAND [01:20:39.520 - 01:20:40.520]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:20:40.520 - 01:20:50.840]: And based on the context of that email, this was not the first time you had discussed these investigations with Secretary Pompeo, was it? GORDON SONDLAND [01:20:50.840 - 01:20:50.960]: No. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:20:50.960 - 01:21:03.760]: He was aware of the connections that you were making between the investigations and the White House meeting and security assistance? GORDON SONDLAND [01:21:03.760 - 01:21:04.080]: Yes. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:21:04.080 - 01:21:11.760]: Did he ever take issue with you and say, no, that connection is not there or you're wrong? GORDON SONDLAND [01:21:11.760 - 01:21:14.800]: Not that I recall. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:21:14.800 - 01:21:41.120]: You mentioned that you also had a conversation with Vice President Pence before his meeting with President Zelensky in Warsaw and that you raised the concern you had, as well, that the security assistance was being withheld because of the president's desire to get a commitment from Zelensky to pursue these political investigations. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:21:41.120 - 01:21:43.960]: What did you say to the vice president? GORDON SONDLAND [01:21:43.960 - 01:22:07.960]: I was in a briefing with several people, and I just spoke up, and I said it appears that everything is stalled until this statement gets made, something -- words to that effect, and that's what I believed to be the case based on, you know, the work that the three of us had been doing, Volker, Perry and myself. GORDON SONDLAND [01:22:07.960 - 01:22:18.160]: And the vice president nodded like, you know, he -- he heard what I said, and that was pretty much it, as I recall. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:22:18.160 - 01:22:28.600]: And you understood that the Ukrainians were going to raise the security assistance with the vice president at this meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [01:22:28.600 - 01:22:36.040]: I didn't know what they were going to raise, but they, in fact, did raise it, Mr. Chairman. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:22:36.040 - 01:22:47.440]: Well it was public by that point that there was a hold on the security assistance, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:22:47.440 - 01:22:56.400]: Yeah, but I didn't know what they were going to raise. I didn't get a pre-brief from the Ukrainians. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:22:56.400 - 01:23:03.000]: Well, you knew certainly they were concerned about the hold on the security assistance, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:23:03.000 - 01:23:07.560]: They were concerned, obviously. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:23:07.560 - 01:23:18.280]: And you wanted to help prepare the vice president for the meeting by letting him know what you thought was responsible for the hold on the security assistance? GORDON SONDLAND [01:23:18.280 - 01:23:18.920]: That's fair. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:23:18.920 - 01:23:30.280]: Do you recall anything else the president -- vice president said other than nodding his head when you made him aware of this fact? GORDON SONDLAND [01:23:30.280 - 01:23:37.400]: No, I don't have a readout of that meeting, so I can't remember anything else. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:23:37.400 - 01:23:53.400]: And it was immediately after this meeting between the vice president and Zelensky that you went to speak with Yermak, and you told him similarly that in order to release the military assistance they were going to have to publicly announce these investigations? GORDON SONDLAND [01:23:53.400 - 01:24:24.320]: Yeah, much has been made of that meeting, and it really wasn't a meeting. What happened was everyone got up after the bilateral meeting between President Zelensky and Vice President Pence, and people do what they normally do. They get up, they mill around, they shake hands, and I don't know if I came over to Yermak or he came over to me, but he said, you know, what's going on here? GORDON SONDLAND [01:24:24.320 - 01:24:32.080]: And I said I don't know. It might all be tied together now. You know, I have no idea. I was presuming that it was, but it was a very short conversation. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:24:32.080 - 01:24:46.880]: Well, in that short conversation, as you would later relay to Mr. Morrison and Ambassador Taylor, you informed Mr. Yermak that they would need to announce -- announce these investigations in order to get the aid, did you not? GORDON SONDLAND [01:24:46.880 - 01:24:55.520]: Well, Mr. Yermak was already working on those investigation -- or on the statement about the investigations. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:24:55.520 - 01:25:03.320]: And you confirmed for him that he needed to get it done if they were going to get the military aid? GORDON SONDLAND [01:25:03.320 - 01:25:05.040]: I likely did. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:25:05.040 - 01:25:34.720]: Mr. Morrison and Ambassador Taylor have also relayed the conversation you had with the president following the Warsaw meeting, in which the president relayed to you that there was no quid pro quo. But nevertheless, unless Zelensky went to the mic and announced these investigations, there would be a stalemate over the aid. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:25:34.720 - 01:25:35.680]: Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:25:35.680 - 01:25:37.120]: That's correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:25:37.120 - 01:25:43.120]: And that was an accurate reflection of your discussion with the president? GORDON SONDLAND [01:25:43.120 - 01:26:22.480]: Well, that email was not artfully written, I'm the first to admit. What I was trying to convey to Ambassador Taylor, after his frantic emails to me and to others about the security assistance, which by the way I agreed with him. I thought it was a very bad idea to hold that money. I finally called the president, I believe it was on 9 September. GORDON SONDLAND [01:26:22.480 - 01:26:54.480]: I can't find the records, and they won't provide them to me. But I believe I just asked him an open-ended question, Mr. Chairman. What do you want from Ukraine? I keep hearing all these different ideas and theories and this and that. What do you want? And it was a very short, abrupt conversation. He was not in a good mood. GORDON SONDLAND [01:26:54.480 - 01:27:34.760]: And he just said I want nothing. I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. Tell Zelensky to do the right thing, something to that effect. So I typed out a text to Ambassador Taylor, and my reason for telling him this was not to defend what the president was saying, not to opine on whether the president was being truthful or untruthful, but simply to relay, I've gone as far as I can go. This is the final word that I heard from the president of the United States. GORDON SONDLAND [01:27:34.760 - 01:27:45.120]: If you are still concerned, you Ambassador Taylor, are still concerned, please get a hold of the secretary. Maybe he can help. [Inaudible] ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:27:45.120 - 01:27:56.120]: I'm not asking about your text message. I'm asking you about your conversations with Mr. Morrison and Ambassador Taylor after you spoke with the president, either in that call or in a different call. GORDON SONDLAND [01:27:56.120 - 01:28:07.160]: I'm confused, Mr. Chairman. Which conversations with Mr. Morrison and Mr. Taylor? ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:28:07.160 - 01:28:39.560]: Well, Mr. Morrison testified that you relayed a conversation you had with the president in which the president told you no quid pro quo, but President Zelensky must go to a microphone and announce these investigations and that he should want to. Similarly, you told Ambassador Taylor that while the president said no quid pro quo, unless Zelensky announced these investigations, they would be at a stalemate, presumably a stalemate over the military assistance. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:28:39.560 - 01:28:47.720]: Do you have any reason to question those conversations that Mr. Morrison and Ambassador Taylor took notes about? GORDON SONDLAND [01:28:47.720 - 01:29:12.480]: Well, I think it's tied to my text, Mr. Chairman, because in my text I think I said something to the effect that he wants Zelensky to do what he ran on, I believe is transparency, etc. etc., which was my clumsy way of saying he wanted -- he wanted these announcements to be made. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:29:12.480 - 01:29:29.360]: Again, Ambassador, I'm not asking you about your text message. I'm asking about what you relayed to Ambassador Taylor and Mr. Morrison about your conversation with the president. Do you have any reason to question their recollection of what you told them? GORDON SONDLAND [01:29:29.360 - 01:29:43.480]: All I can say is that I expressed what I told -- or what the president told me in that text, and if I had relayed anything other than what was in that text, I don't recall. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:29:43.480 - 01:29:44.840]: You don't recall? GORDON SONDLAND [01:29:44.840 - 01:29:46.120]: I don't recall. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:29:46.120 - 01:29:55.000]: But you have no reason to question Ambassador Taylor or Mr. Morrison of what they wrote in their notes about your conversation with them? GORDON SONDLAND [01:29:55.000 - 01:29:56.560]: Could you kindly repeat what they wrote? ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:29:56.560 - 01:29:59.360]: I'll have Mr. Goldman go through that with you. GORDON SONDLAND [01:29:59.360 - 01:30:00.600]: That would be great. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:30:00.600 - 01:30:06.240]: But let me get to the very -- the top line here, Ambassador Sondland. GORDON SONDLAND [01:30:06.240 - 01:30:06.760]: Okay. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:30:06.760 - 01:30:22.240]: You've testified that the White House meeting that President Zelensky desperately wanted -- and that was very important to President Zelensky, was it not? GORDON SONDLAND [01:30:22.240 - 01:30:23.560]: Absolutely. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:30:23.560 - 01:30:37.120]: You've testified that that meeting was conditioned, was a quid pro quo, for what the president wanted, these two investigations. Isn't that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:30:37.120 - 01:30:37.960]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:30:37.960 - 01:30:42.280]: And that everybody knew it? GORDON SONDLAND [01:30:42.280 - 01:30:43.160]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:30:43.160 - 01:30:49.240]: Now that White House meeting was going to be an official meeting between the two presidents, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:30:49.240 - 01:30:52.120]: Presumably. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:30:52.120 - 01:30:54.640]: It would be an Oval Office meeting, hopefully? GORDON SONDLAND [01:30:54.640 - 01:30:57.120]: A working meeting, yes. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:30:57.120 - 01:31:05.520]: Working meeting, so an official act, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:31:05.520 - 01:31:06.000]: Yes. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:31:06.000 - 01:31:15.080]: And in order to perform that official act, Donald Trump wanted these two investigations that would help his reelection campaign, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:31:15.080 - 01:31:23.320]: I can't characterize why he wanted them. All I can tell you is this is what we heard from Mr. Giuliani. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:31:23.320 - 01:31:31.800]: But he had -- he had to get those two investigations if that official act was going to take place, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:31:31.800 - 01:31:39.000]: He had to announce the investigations; he didn't actually have to do them, as I understood it. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:31:39.000 - 01:31:53.880]: Okay, President Zelensky had to announce the two investigations the president wanted, to make a public announcement, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:31:53.880 - 01:31:54.240]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:31:54.240 - 01:32:13.640]: And those were of great value to the president; he was quite insistent upon them, and his attorney was insistent upon them? GORDON SONDLAND [01:32:13.640 - 01:32:25.040]: I don't want to characterize whether they were value, not value. Again, through Mr. Giuliani, we were led to believe that that's what he wanted. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:32:25.040 - 01:32:32.400]: Well, and you said that Mr. Giuliani was acting at the president's demand, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:32:32.400 - 01:32:43.400]: Right. When the president says talk to my personal lawyer, Mr. Giuliani, we followed his direction. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:32:43.400 - 01:32:59.960]: And so that official act of that meeting was being conditioned on the performance of these things the president wanted as expressed both directly and through his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:32:59.960 - 01:33:01.480]: As expressed through Rudy Giuliani, correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:33:01.480 - 01:33:19.440]: And you've also testified that your understanding, it became your clear understanding, that the military assistance was also being withheld pending Zelensky announcing these investigations, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:33:19.440 - 01:33:29.720]: That was my presumption, my personal presumption based on the facts at the time. Nothing was moving. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:33:29.720 - 01:33:48.480]: And in fact, you had a discussion, a communication with the Secretary of State in which you said that logjam over aid could be lifted if the Zelensky announced these investigations, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:33:48.480 - 01:33:55.120]: I did not -- I don't recall saying the logjam over aid. I recall saying the logjam. I don't know that -- ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:33:55.120 - 01:33:57.760]: -- That's what you -- that's what you meant, right, Ambassador? GORDON SONDLAND [01:33:57.760 - 01:34:12.120]: I -- I -- I meant that whatever was holding up the meeting, whatever was holding up our deal with Ukraine, I was trying to break. Again, I was presuming. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:34:12.120 - 01:34:15.600]: Well, here's what you said in your testimony a moment ago -- GORDON SONDLAND [01:34:15.600 - 01:34:16.040]: -- Okay -- ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:34:16.040 - 01:34:35.320]: -- Page 18. But my goal at the time was to do what was necessary to get the aid released, to break the logjam. Okay, that's still your testimony, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:34:35.320 - 01:34:35.320]: Yeah. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:34:35.320 - 01:34:39.160]: So, the military aid is also an official act, am I right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:34:39.160 - 01:34:39.760]: Yes. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:34:39.760 - 01:34:58.720]: This is not President Trump's personal bank account he's writing a check from. This is $400 million of U.S. taxpayer money, is it not? GORDON SONDLAND [01:34:58.720 - 01:35:00.240]: Absolutely. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:35:00.240 - 01:35:10.800]: And there was a logjam in which the president would not write that U.S. check, you believed, until Ukraine announced these two investigations the president wanted, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:35:10.800 - 01:35:11.960]: That was my belief. ADAM B. SCHIFF [01:35:11.960 - 01:35:13.120]: Mr. Goldman? DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:35:13.120 - 01:35:25.120]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In your opening statement, Ambassador Sondland, you -- you detailed the benefits that you have gained from obtaining some additional documents over the past few weeks. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:35:25.120 - 01:35:27.960]: In terms of refreshing my recollection, that's correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:35:27.960 - 01:35:33.760]: Right, because reviewing these documents has helped you to remember the events that we're asking about, is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:35:33.760 - 01:35:34.000]: Correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:35:34.000 - 01:35:43.000]: Because you acknowledged, of course, that when you can place a document and a date in a context, it helps to jog your memory. GORDON SONDLAND [01:35:43.000 - 01:35:46.440]: That's correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:35:46.440 - 01:35:56.560]: And so, you would agree that for people unlike yourself who take notes, that that is very helpful to their own recollection of events, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:35:56.560 - 01:36:08.840]: I -- I think you asked your question backwards. Are you saying people that take notes, it's helpful to have those documents, or people that don't take notes, it's helpful to have those documents? DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:36:08.840 - 01:36:11.960]: No, no. You are not a note taker, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:36:11.960 - 01:36:13.040]: I'm not a note taker, never have been. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:36:13.040 - 01:36:23.760]: But you would agree that people who do take contemporaneous notes generally can -- are -- are more able to remember things than people who don't. GORDON SONDLAND [01:36:23.760 - 01:36:24.760]: Some, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:36:24.760 - 01:36:28.400]: And there are additional documents that you've been unable to obtain, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:36:28.400 - 01:36:30.360]: That's correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:36:30.360 - 01:36:41.520]: And I think you even said in your opening statement that the State Department prevented you and your staff from trying to gather more documents, is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:36:41.520 - 01:36:43.360]: Certain documents, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:36:43.360 - 01:36:43.800]: Which documents? GORDON SONDLAND [01:36:43.800 - 01:36:47.800]: Documents that I didn't have immediate access to. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:36:47.800 - 01:36:51.200]: And who at the State Department prevented you from doing that? GORDON SONDLAND [01:36:51.200 - 01:36:55.000]: You'll have to ask my counsel. He was dealing with them. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:36:55.000 - 01:37:10.560]: But certainly, based on the additional memory that you have gained over the past few weeks from reading the testimony of others based on their notes and reviewing your own documents, you have remembered a lot more than you did when you were deposed, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:37:10.560 - 01:37:11.200]: That's correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:37:11.200 - 01:37:22.880]: And one of the things that you now remember is the discussion that you had with the -- with President Trump on July 26th in that restaurant in Kiev, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:37:22.880 - 01:37:34.840]: Yeah. What triggered my memory was someone's reference to A$AP Rocky, which was, I believe, the primary purpose of the phone call. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:37:34.840 - 01:37:51.520]: Certainly. So, you -- that's one way memory works, isn't it? And you were sitting in a restaurant with David Holmes in Kiev, right, having lunch? GORDON SONDLAND [01:37:51.520 - 01:37:58.040]: I think I took the whole team out to lunch after the meeting, yeah. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:37:58.040 - 01:38:02.360]: And it was a meeting -- a one-on-one meeting you had with Andriy Yermak? GORDON SONDLAND [01:38:02.360 - 01:38:15.880]: Again, trying to reconstruct a very busy day without the benefit, but if someone said I had a meeting and I went to the meeting, then I'm not going to dispute that. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:38:15.880 - 01:38:21.720]: And particularly if that person took notes at that meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [01:38:21.720 - 01:38:22.680]: Correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:38:22.680 - 01:38:26.840]: Are sat outside the door when you didn't let them in? GORDON SONDLAND [01:38:26.840 - 01:38:35.520]: I have no control over who goes into a meeting in Ukraine. That was the Ukrainians who didn't let them in. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:38:35.520 - 01:38:45.160]: And you had also met with President Zelensky, among others, that day, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:38:45.160 - 01:38:46.000]: That's -- that's correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:38:46.000 - 01:38:55.240]: And you called President Trump from your cell phone from the restaurant, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:38:55.240 - 01:38:56.520]: That's right. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:38:56.520 - 01:39:01.040]: And this was not a secure line, was it? GORDON SONDLAND [01:39:01.040 - 01:39:04.120]: No, it was an open line. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:39:04.120 - 01:39:11.640]: Did you worry that a foreign government may be listening to your phone call with the president of the United States? GORDON SONDLAND [01:39:11.640 - 01:39:33.280]: Well, I have unclassified conversations all the time from land lines that are unsecured and cell phones. If the topic is not classified, and it's up to the president to decide what's classified and what's not classified, and we were having -- he -- he was aware that it was an open line as well. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:39:33.280 - 01:39:45.920]: And you don't recall the specifics of holding your phone outside -- far away from your ear, as Mr. Holmes testified, but you have no reason to question his recollection of that, do you? GORDON SONDLAND [01:39:45.920 - 01:40:03.600]: I mean, it seems a little strange I would hold my phone here. I probably had my phone close to my ear. And he claims to have overheard part of the conversation, and I'm not going to dispute what he did or didn't hear. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:40:03.600 - 01:40:15.360]: Well, he also testified that you confirmed it to President Trump that you were in Ukraine at the time and that President Zelensky "loves your ass." Do you recall saying that? GORDON SONDLAND [01:40:15.360 - 01:40:22.680]: That sounds like something I would say. That's how President Trump and I communicate, a lot of four letter words; in this case three letter. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:40:22.680 - 01:40:40.640]: Holmes then said that he heard President Trump ask, "Is he," meaning Zelensky, "going to do the investigation," to which you replied, "He's going to do it." And then you added that President Zelensky will do anything that you, meaning President Trump, ask him to. Do you recall that? GORDON SONDLAND [01:40:40.640 - 01:41:14.120]: I probably said something to that effect because I remember the meeting, the president -- or President Zelensky was very -- solicitous is not a good word. He was just very willing to work with the United States and was being very amicable. And so, putting it in Trump speak by saying he loved your ass, he'll do whatever you want, meant that he would really work with us on a whole host of issues. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:41:14.120 - 01:41:17.400]: He was not only willing, he was very eager, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:41:17.400 - 01:41:18.160]: That's fair. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:41:18.160 - 01:41:26.600]: Because Ukraine depends on the United States as its most significant ally, is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:41:26.600 - 01:41:29.440]: One of its most, absolutely. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:41:29.440 - 01:41:58.560]: So, just so we understand, you -- you were in Kiev the day after President Trump spoke to President Zelensky on the phone. And you now know from reading the call record that in that phone call he requested a favor, for President Zelensky to do investigations related to the Bidens and the 2016 election, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:41:58.560 - 01:42:01.240]: I do now know that, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:42:01.240 - 01:42:35.880]: And you met with President Zelensky and his aides on the day after that phone call. And then you had a conversation with President Trump from your cell phone from a restaurant terrace, and he asked you whether President Zelensky will do the investigations. And you responded that he's going to do them, or it, and that President Zelensky will do anything you ask them to do. Is that an accurate recitation of what happened there? GORDON SONDLAND [01:42:35.880 - 01:42:41.120]: I -- I -- it could have been words to that effect. I don't remember my exact response. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:42:41.120 - 01:42:46.440]: But you don't have any reason to dispute Mr. Holmes' recollection, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:42:46.440 - 01:42:49.280]: I won't dispute it. But again, I don't recall. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:42:49.280 - 01:43:08.680]: After you hung up with the president, Mr. Holmes testified about a conversation that you and he had where he says that you told Mr. Holmes that the president does not care about Ukraine, but the president use the more colorful language including a four letter word that you just referenced to -- or just referenced. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:43:08.680 - 01:43:11.400]: Do you recall saying that to Mr. Holmes? GORDON SONDLAND [01:43:11.400 - 01:43:20.000]: Again, I don't recall my exact words, but clearly the president, beginning on May 23rd when we met with him in the Oval Office, was not a big fan. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:43:20.000 - 01:43:22.560]: But he was a big fan of the investigations? GORDON SONDLAND [01:43:22.560 - 01:43:23.240]: Apparently so. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:43:23.240 - 01:43:34.400]: And in fact, Mr. Holmes said that you -- that you said that President Trump only cares about the "big stuff" that benefits himself. Is that something that you would have said at the time? GORDON SONDLAND [01:43:34.400 - 01:43:55.440]: I don't think I would have said that. I would have -- I would have honestly said that he was not a big fan of Ukraine and he wants the investigations that we had been talking about for quite some time to move forward. That's what I would have said because that's the fact. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:43:55.440 - 01:44:07.040]: Mr. Holmes also remembers that you told him, in giving an example of the big stuff, the Biden investigation that Rudy Giuliani was pushing. Do you recall that? GORDON SONDLAND [01:44:07.040 - 01:44:11.080]: I don't. I recall Burisma, not Biden. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:44:11.080 - 01:44:27.480]: And -- but do you recall saying -- and at least refer -- referring to an investigation that Rudy Giuliani was pushing? Is that something that you likely would have said? GORDON SONDLAND [01:44:27.480 - 01:44:29.440]: I would have, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:44:29.440 - 01:45:10.880]: Now even if you don't recall specifically mentioning the Biden investigation to David Holmes we know that it was certainly on President Trump's mind because just the day before in his call with President Zelensky he mentioned specifically the Biden investigation and I want to show you that exhibit or the excerpt from the call on July 25 where President Trump says the other thing, there's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stop the presses and a lot of people want to find out about that. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:45:10.880 - 01:45:39.240]: So whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it, it sounds horrible to me. President Zelensky then responds with a reference to the company that he is referring to and to witnesses yesterday said that when President Zelensky actually said the company he said Burisma. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:45:39.240 - 01:45:55.080]: So you would agree that regardless of whether you knew about the connection to the Biden's at the very least that you now know that that is what President Trump wanted at the time through the Burisma investigation? GORDON SONDLAND [01:45:55.080 - 01:45:57.560]: I now know what all of course. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:45:57.560 - 01:46:15.720]: And at this time you were aware of the presidents desire along with Rudy Giuliani to do these investigations including the 2016 election interference investigation, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:46:15.720 - 01:46:17.040]: That is correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:46:17.040 - 01:46:28.880]: And you said President Trump had directed you to talk, you and a cup -- the others to talk to Rudy Giuliani at the Oval Office on May 23, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:46:28.880 - 01:46:34.880]: If we wanted to get anything done with Ukraine it was apparent to us we needed to talk to Rudy. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:46:34.880 - 01:46:40.960]: Right. You understood that Mr. Giuliani spoke for the President, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:46:40.960 - 01:46:41.920]: That is correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:46:41.920 - 01:47:11.200]: And in fact President Trump also made that clear to President Zelensky in that same July 25 phone call he said Mr. Giuliani is highly -- a highly respected man, he was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General. Rudy very much knows what is happening and he is a very capable guy. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:47:11.200 - 01:47:47.440]: And after this President Trump then mentions Mr. Giuliani twice more in that call. Now from Mr. Giuliani by this point you understood that in order to get that White House meeting that you wanted President Zelensky to have and that President Zelensky desperately wanted to have that Ukraine would have to initiate these two investigations, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:47:47.440 - 01:47:51.800]: Well, they would have to announce that they were going to do it. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:47:51.800 - 01:48:02.080]: Right, because they -- because Giuliani and President Trump didn't actually care if they did them, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:48:02.080 - 01:48:22.800]: I never hold, Mr. Goldman, in a one say that the investigations had to start or had to be completed. The only thing I heard from Mr. Giuliani or otherwise was that they had to be announced in some form and that form kept changing. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:48:22.800 - 01:48:23.720]: Announced publicly? GORDON SONDLAND [01:48:23.720 - 01:48:25.760]: Announced publicly. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:48:25.760 - 01:48:35.760]: And you will of course recognize that there would be political benefits to a public announcement as opposed to a private confirmation, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:48:35.760 - 01:48:59.240]: Well, the way it was expressed to me was that the Ukrainians have a long history of committing two things privately and then never following through. So President Trump presumably again communicated through Mr. Giuliani wanted the Ukrainians on record publicly that they were going to do these investigations, that is the reason that was given to me. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:48:59.240 - 01:49:06.400]: But you never heard anyone say that they really wanted them to do the investigations, just that they wanted to -- GORDON SONDLAND [01:49:06.400 - 01:49:08.920]: I didn't hear -- I didn't hear either way. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:49:08.920 - 01:49:10.160]: -- announce them. GORDON SONDLAND [01:49:10.160 - 01:49:12.040]: I didn't hear either way. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:49:12.040 - 01:49:19.440]: Now your July 26 call with the President was not the only time that you spoke to the president surrounding that Ukraine trip was it? GORDON SONDLAND [01:49:19.440 - 01:49:22.160]: I believe I spoke to him before his call. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:49:22.160 - 01:49:25.720]: And that's -- so that would be on July 25, the day before? GORDON SONDLAND [01:49:25.720 - 01:49:34.240]: Yeah, I think I was flying to Ukraine and I spoke with him if I recall correctly just before I got on the plane. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:49:34.240 - 01:49:41.240]: So that's two private telephone calls with President Trump in the span of two days is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:49:41.240 - 01:49:41.600]: Correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:49:41.600 - 01:49:46.600]: You had direct access into President Trump, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:49:46.600 - 01:49:57.120]: I had occasional access when he chose to take my calls. Sometimes he would, sometimes he wouldn't. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:49:57.120 - 01:50:05.840]: Well, he certainly took your call twice as it related to Ukraine on these two days is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:50:05.840 - 01:50:06.200]: He did. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:50:06.200 - 01:50:33.000]: Now the morning of July 25 you texted Ambassador Volker and we could bring up the next text exchange at 7:54 AM and you said call ASAP. Ambassador Volker did not respond to you for another hour and a half and he said hi, Gordon, got your message. Had a great lunch with Yermak and then passed your message to him. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:50:33.000 - 01:51:05.360]: He will see you tomorrow. Think everything in place. Volker though an hour before that and about half an hour before the phone call had texted Andriy Yermak, a top aide for President Zelensky and he wrote good lunch, thanks. Heard from White House. Assuming President Zelensky convinces Trump he will investigate, get to the bottom of what happened in 2016 we will nail down date for a visit to Washington. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:51:05.360 - 01:51:16.840]: Good luck see you tomorrow. Ambassador Sondland was this message that Kurt Volker passed to Andriy Yermak the message you left for Kurt Volker on that voicemail that he referenced? GORDON SONDLAND [01:51:16.840 - 01:51:20.920]: You know I don't remember Mr. Goldman but it very well could have been. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:51:20.920 - 01:51:23.760]: You don't have any reason to think it wasn't, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:51:23.760 - 01:51:27.040]: Again I honestly, honestly don't remember but seems logical to me. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:51:27.040 - 01:51:36.000]: And if Ambassador Volker testified that he did get that message from you. You have no reason to doubt that, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:51:36.000 - 01:51:40.560]: Know, if he testified that he got that message from me then I would concur with that. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:51:40.560 - 01:51:47.920]: So is it fair to say that this message is what you received from President Trump and that phone call that morning? GORDON SONDLAND [01:51:47.920 - 01:51:58.960]: Again, if he testified to that to refresh my own memory then yes, likely I would have receive that from President Trump. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:51:58.960 - 01:52:04.360]: But the sequence certainly makes sense, all right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:52:04.360 - 01:52:06.360]: Yeah, it does. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:52:06.360 - 01:52:32.440]: You talk to President Trump, you told Kurt Volker to call you, you left a message for Kurt Volker, Kurt Volker sent this text message to Andriy Yermak to prepare President Zelensky and then President Trump had a phone call where President Zelensky spoke very similar to what was in this text message, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:52:32.440 - 01:52:32.840]: Right. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:52:32.840 - 01:52:47.920]: And you would agree that the message in this -- that is expressed here is that President Zelensky needs to convince Trump that he will do the investigations in order to nail down the day for a visit to Washington DC, is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:52:47.920 - 01:52:49.680]: That is correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:52:49.680 - 01:53:38.600]: Now I'm going to move ahead in time to the end of August and early September when you came to believe I believe as you testified that it wasn't just the White House meeting that was contingent on the announcement of these investigations but the President wanted but security assistance as well. You testified that in the absence of any credible explanation for the hold on security assistance you came to the conclusion that like the White House visit the aide was conditioned on the investigations that President Trump wanted. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:53:38.600 - 01:53:40.840]: Is that what you said in your opening statement? GORDON SONDLAND [01:53:40.840 - 01:53:43.200]: It is. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:53:43.200 - 01:53:59.640]: So let me break this down with you. By this time you and many top officials knew that the coveted White House meeting for President Zelensky was conditioned on these investigations, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:53:59.640 - 01:54:05.440]: The announcement of the investigations, correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:54:05.440 - 01:54:10.480]: Thank you. And that includes Secretary Pompeo, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:54:10.480 - 01:54:12.560]: Many -- many people. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:54:12.560 - 01:54:15.160]: And well -- Secretary Pompeo? GORDON SONDLAND [01:54:15.160 - 01:54:15.720]: Yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:54:15.720 - 01:54:18.040]: And acting chief of staff Mulvaney? GORDON SONDLAND [01:54:18.040 - 01:54:18.600]: Yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:54:18.600 - 01:54:23.840]: And you testified that this was a quid pro quo is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:54:23.840 - 01:54:25.360]: I didn't. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:54:25.360 - 01:54:34.040]: And you -- at this point by the end of August knew that the aide had been held up for at least six weeks, is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [01:54:34.040 - 01:54:43.800]: I believe I found out through Ambassador Taylor that the eight have been held up around July 18 is when I heard originally. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:54:43.800 - 01:54:51.080]: And even though you searched for reasons you were never given a credible explanation is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:54:51.080 - 01:54:52.320]: That is right. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:54:52.320 - 01:55:01.280]: And no one you spoke to thought that the aide should be held to your knowledge, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:55:01.280 - 01:55:04.080]: I never heard anyone advocate for holding the aide. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:55:04.080 - 01:55:10.000]: And now by this point at the end of August it went public and the Ukrainians knew about it, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:55:10.000 - 01:55:21.320]: I believe there were some press reports you know presuming or who knows but I think at that point it became sort of common knowledge that everything might be tied together. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:55:21.320 - 01:55:34.480]: And in fact President Zelensky brought it up at that September 1 meeting with Vice President Pence that you were at, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:55:34.480 - 01:55:51.640]: I don't know if he brought it up specifically but asked where the aide was I think was more -- I think he -- a sort of ask again very vague recollection because I don't have a readout of the -- of the bilateral meeting but why don't I have my check essentially. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:55:51.640 - 01:55:57.440]: And you -- you understood the Ukrainians receive no credible explanation is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:55:57.440 - 01:56:00.600]: I certainly didn't -- couldn't give them one. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:56:00.600 - 01:56:06.360]: So is this kind of a two plus two equals four conclusion that you reached? GORDON SONDLAND [01:56:06.360 - 01:56:09.720]: Pretty much. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:56:09.720 - 01:56:18.560]: It is the only logical conclusion to you that given all of these factors that the aide was also a part of this quid pro quo? GORDON SONDLAND [01:56:18.560 - 01:56:19.440]: Yep. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:56:19.440 - 01:56:33.520]: Now I want to go back to the conversation that you had with Vice President Pence right before that meeting in Warsaw and you indicated that you said to him that you were concerned that the delay in the aide was tied to the issue investigations, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:56:33.520 - 01:56:57.320]: I -- I don't know exactly what I said to him. This was a briefing attended by many people and I was invited at the very last minute. I wasn't scheduled to be there. But I think I spoke up at some point late in the meeting and said it looks like everything is being held up until the statements get made and that is my you know personal belief. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:56:57.320 - 01:57:00.320]: And Vice President Pence just nodded his head? GORDON SONDLAND [01:57:00.320 - 01:57:13.200]: Again, I don't recall any exchange or where he asked me any questions. I think he -- it was sort of a duly noted [Inaudible] DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:57:13.200 - 01:57:17.760]: Well, he didn't say, Gordon, what are you talking about? GORDON SONDLAND [01:57:17.760 - 01:57:20.720]: No, he did not. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:57:20.720 - 01:57:23.920]: He didn't say, what investigations? GORDON SONDLAND [01:57:23.920 - 01:57:25.560]: He did not. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:57:25.560 - 01:57:45.720]: Now, after this meeting you discussed this pull-aside you had with Mr. Yermak where you relayed your belief that they needed to announce these investigations prior to the aid being released. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:57:45.720 - 01:57:51.880]: I said I didn't know exactly why, but this could be a reason. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:57:51.880 - 01:58:00.400]: And obviously you had been speaking with Mr. Yermak for quite a while about a public announcement of these investigations, right? GORDON SONDLAND [01:58:00.400 - 01:58:04.520]: We had all been working on -- toward that end, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:58:04.520 - 01:58:09.560]: So you indicated to him that in addition to the White House meeting, security aid was now also involved in that? GORDON SONDLAND [01:58:09.560 - 01:58:13.040]: As I said, I said it could have been involved, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:58:13.040 - 01:58:37.040]: Now I'm going to show you another text exchange you had on September 1 where Ambassador Taylor says to you, are we now saying that security assistance and White House meeting are conditioned on investigations? And you respond, call me. Ambassador Taylor recalls that he did call you, and you did have a conversation. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:58:37.040 - 01:58:58.000]: And in that conversation you told Ambassador Taylor that the announcement of these investigations by President Zelensky needed to be public and that that announcement was conditioned on -- that announcement would ultimately release the aid. Do you recall that conversation with Ambassador Taylor? GORDON SONDLAND [01:58:58.000 - 01:59:07.880]: Again, my conversation with Ambassador Taylor, my conversation with Senator Johnson, were all my personal belief just based on, as you put it, two plus two equals four. DANIEL GOLDMAN [01:59:07.880 - 01:59:37.200]: Well, in that -- in his testimony Ambassador Taylor says that you said that President Trump had told you that he wanted President Zelensky to state publicly, as of September 1. Do you have any reason to doubt Ambassador Taylor's testimony, which he said was based on his meticulous contemporaneous notes? GORDON SONDLAND [01:59:37.200 - 02:00:00.800]: President Trump never told me directly that the aid was conditioned on the meetings. The only thing we got directly from Giuliani was that the Burisma and 2016 elections were conditioned on the White House meeting. The aid was my own personal, you know, guess based, again, on your analogy two plus two equals four. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:00:00.800 - 02:00:08.120]: So you didn't talk to President Trump when Ambassador Taylor says that that's what you told him? Is that your testimony here? GORDON SONDLAND [02:00:08.120 - 02:00:15.960]: My testimony is I never heard from President Trump that aid was conditioned on an announcement of elections. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:00:15.960 - 02:00:21.360]: So you never heard those specific words, right? But -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:00:21.360 - 02:00:24.280]: Correct, never heard those words. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:00:24.280 - 02:00:48.320]: Well, let's move ahead because you have another conversation in -- in a little bit later that both Tim Morrison and Ambassador Taylor recount. But in this September 1 conversation, Ambassador Taylor also says that -- testified under oath that you said that President Trump wanted Zelensky in a public box. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:00:48.320 - 02:00:49.720]: Do you recall using that expression? GORDON SONDLAND [02:00:49.720 - 02:01:10.360]: Yeah, it goes back to my earlier comment that, again, coming from the Giuliani source because we didn't discuss this specifically with President Trump, that they wanted whatever commitments Ukraine made to be made publicly so that they would be on the record and be held more accountable, whatever those commitments were. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:01:10.360 - 02:01:35.440]: You also testified -- or Ambassador Taylor, rather, testified that you told him that you had made a mistake in telling the Ukrainians that only the White House meeting was conditioned on the announcement of the investigations and that, in fact, everything was, including the security assistance. Do you remember saying that? GORDON SONDLAND [02:01:35.440 - 02:02:04.920]: When I referenced a mistake, what I recall was I thought that a statement made by the new Ukrainian prosecutor that these investigations would be started up again or commenced would be sufficient to satisfy Mr. Giuliani/President Trump. As I recall, my mistake was someone came back through Volker otherwise and said no, it's not going to do if the prosecutor makes these statements. GORDON SONDLAND [02:02:04.920 - 02:02:11.800]: The president wants to hear it from Zelensky directly. That's the mistake I think I made. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:02:11.800 - 02:02:21.160]: Do you have any reason to question Ambassador Taylor's testimony based on his meticulous and careful contemporaneous notes? GORDON SONDLAND [02:02:21.160 - 02:02:29.000]: I'm not going to question or not question. I'm just telling you what I believe I was referring to. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:02:29.000 - 02:02:42.040]: Let me fast-forward a week and show you another text exchange which may help refresh your recollection. On September 8 you had a -- you sent a text to Ambassador Taylor and Ambassador Volker. Can you read what you wrote there? GORDON SONDLAND [02:02:42.040 - 02:02:45.000]: Guys, multiple convos with Zelensky, POTUS. Let's talk. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:02:45.000 - 02:03:08.680]: And so this was September 8 at 11:20 in the morning. And Ambassador Taylor responds immediately; now is fine with me. And if we could go to the next exchange, Ambassador Taylor then 15 minutes later says Gordon and I just spoke -- or 20 minutes later, rather -- I can brief you if you and Gordon don't connect, speaking to Ambassador Volker. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:03:08.680 - 02:03:43.520]: Then Ambassador Taylor an hour later says the nightmare is they give the interview and don't get the security assistance. The Russians love it, and I quit. You would agree that in this text message, after you had spoken earlier, an hour earlier with Ambassador Taylor, that he is linking the security assistance to this interview, this public announcement by President Zelensky. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:03:43.520 - 02:03:44.440]: Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:03:44.440 - 02:03:45.400]: Absolutely. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:03:45.400 - 02:04:10.200]: And in fact Ambassador Taylor testified that you did have a conversation with him at that point, and he did -- and that you told him that just as your text message indicates, you did have a conversation with President Trump prior to that text message. Does that help to refresh your recollection that you in fact spoke to President Trump at that time? GORDON SONDLAND [02:04:10.200 - 02:04:52.560]: Again, I don't recall President Trump ever talking to me about any security assistance, ever. What this tells me, refreshing my memory, is that by 8 September it was abundantly clear to everyone that there was a link and that we were discussing the chicken and egg issue of should the Ukrainians go out on a ledge and make the statement that President Trump wanted them to make, and then they still don't get their White House visit and their aid. GORDON SONDLAND [02:04:52.560 - 02:04:58.880]: That would be really bad for our credibility. I think that's what he is referring to. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:04:58.880 - 02:05:06.640]: So you do acknowledge you spoke to President Trump, as you indicated in that text, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:05:06.640 - 02:05:09.480]: If I said I did, I did. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:05:09.480 - 02:05:16.760]: And then after that conversation you were still under the impression that the aid was contingent on these public announcements? GORDON SONDLAND [02:05:16.760 - 02:05:23.640]: I did not get that from President Trump, but I was under the impression that absolutely it was contingent. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:05:23.640 - 02:05:36.080]: Well, you weren't dissuaded then, right, because you still thought the aid was conditioned on the public announcement of the investigations after speaking to President Trump? GORDON SONDLAND [02:05:36.080 - 02:05:42.000]: By September 8 I was absolutely convinced it was. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:05:42.000 - 02:05:51.440]: And President Trump did not dissuade you of that in the conversation that you acknowledge you had with him? GORDON SONDLAND [02:05:51.440 - 02:05:58.680]: I don't ever recall -- because that would have changed my entire calculus. If President Trump had told me directly, I'm not -- DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:05:58.680 - 02:06:11.840]: That's not what I'm asking, Mr. Sondland. I'm just saying, you still believed that the security assistance was conditioned on the investigation after you spoke to President Trump, yes or no? GORDON SONDLAND [02:06:11.840 - 02:06:15.600]: From a timeframe standpoint, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:06:15.600 - 02:06:55.080]: Now Ambassador Taylor also testified that -- and Mr. Morrison, both of them testified, that you told them that President Trump said there was no quid pro quo, which you also included in that text message that you referred, but then you went on and they had slight variations as to what you told them, but then you said that -- to Ambassador Taylor, that President Zelensky himself, not the prosecutor general, needed to clear things up in public or there would be a stalemate. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:06:55.080 - 02:07:11.200]: And Mr. Morrison recounted something similar. You don't have any reason to doubt that both of their very similar recollections of the conversations they had with you, do you, Ambassador Sondland? GORDON SONDLAND [02:07:11.200 - 02:07:37.480]: Let me break that down, Mr. Goldman. The text, as I said, about the no quid pro quo, was my effort to respond to Ambassador Taylor's concerns to go to President Trump. Apparently Ambassador Taylor had access to Secretary Pompeo. He did not have access to President Trump. So I made the phone call. I said, what do you want? GORDON SONDLAND [02:07:37.480 - 02:08:19.080]: President Trump responded with what I put in the text, and then I strongly encouraged Ambassador Taylor to take it up with the secretary, and he responded, I agree when I said that. As far as the other part of your question relating to whether or not the prosecutor could make the statement or Zelensky could make the statement, I don't recall who told me, whether it was Volker, whether it was Giuliani, or whether it was President Trump, it's got to be Zelensky. GORDON SONDLAND [02:08:19.080 - 02:08:37.040]: It can't be the prosecutor. But that's what I relayed. Whoever I got that information from, I relayed that to, I believe both Mr. -- or excuse me -- Ambassador Taylor and to Mr. Morrison. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:08:37.040 - 02:09:03.040]: But as of September 9 you understood, did you not, that President Trump, either himself or through his agents, required that President Zelensky make a public announcement of the two investigations that President Trump cared about in order to get both the White House meeting and to release the security assistance? DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:09:03.040 - 02:09:03.960]: Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:09:03.960 - 02:09:06.040]: I believe that is correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [02:09:06.040 - 02:09:09.200]: Mr. Chairman, I yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:09:09.200 - 02:09:17.160]: That concludes our 45 minutes. I now recognize Mr. Nunes -- oh, okay. Why don't we take a 5- or 10-minute break? GORDON SONDLAND [02:09:17.160 - 02:09:17.680]: Thank you. ADAM B. SCHIFF [02:09:17.680 - 02:09:27.960]: The committee will come to order. I now recognize Ranking Member Nunes and minority counsel for 45 minutes of questions. DEVIN NUNES [02:09:27.960 - 02:10:08.880]: I thank the gentleman. For those of you watching at home that was not a bathroom break, that was actually a chance for the Democrats to go out and hold a press conference ambassador for all of the suppose it bombshells that were in your opening testimony. I want to get back to the facts of the matter here and the thing that the Democrats have been unwilling to accept is that their operatives got campaign dirt from Ukrainians in the -- in the 2016 election. DEVIN NUNES [02:10:08.880 - 02:10:57.200]: Now they know it, they know it's true because we have financial records that show it. So they were -- the Democrats were heavily involved working with Ukrainians to dirty up the Trump campaign in 2016. So ambassador I want to go through just a few of the incidents that we know. I know you may not know all about them, you may know about them now but I want to walk through some of those examples of why the President may be very upset with Ukraine and think that they are a country that is out to get him as I think both you have said that and Ambassador Volker have said that from that May 23 meeting. DEVIN NUNES [02:10:57.200 - 02:11:05.440]: The first question I have is were you aware of the anti-Trump efforts by DNC operative Alexandra Chalupa? GORDON SONDLAND [02:11:05.440 - 02:11:06.960]: I am not aware of it. DEVIN NUNES [02:11:06.960 - 02:11:35.640]: So in 2000 -- there is a 2017 article that also quotes a Ukrainian parliamentarian, Artemenko saying quote it was clear that they were supporting meaning Ukraine, supporting Hillary Clinton's candidacy and they did everything from organizing meetings with the Clinton team to publicly supporting her to criticizing Trump. DEVIN NUNES [02:11:35.640 - 02:11:49.320]: I think that they simply didn't meet with the Trump campaign because they thought Hillary would win. Do you know that Ukrainian official by any chance this -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:11:49.320 - 02:11:49.920]: I don't. DEVIN NUNES [02:11:49.920 - 02:12:00.920]: -- that stated that? Were you aware that then Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S. Chaly wrote and off bed in the hell during the 2016 presidential campaign criticizing then candidate Trump? GORDON SONDLAND [02:12:00.920 - 02:12:01.840]: Not aware. DEVIN NUNES [02:12:01.840 - 02:12:04.200]: But you know that now after the last few months? GORDON SONDLAND [02:12:04.200 - 02:12:06.000]: Correct. DEVIN NUNES [02:12:06.000 - 02:12:39.040]: So probably one of the more disturbing ones is the Ukrainian Internal Affairs Minister Avakov mocked and disparaged then candidate Trump on Facebook and twitter. Were you aware that Serhiy Leshchenko a Ukrainian parliamentarian admitted that part of his motivation in spreading the information about the so-called black ledger, a disputed document purporting to reveal corruption by former Trump campaign official was to undermine the Trump candidacy? GORDON SONDLAND [02:12:39.040 - 02:12:40.560]: I wasn't aware. DEVIN NUNES [02:12:40.560 - 02:13:11.560]: So you may be familiar the black ledger was used in the 2016 election to dirty up a campaign associate and later Mueller didn't use that as evidence in his report on election meddling. So knowing all of these facts from high-ranking Ukrainian officials ambassador probably makes a little more sense now as to why the President may think that there's problems with Ukraine and that Ukraine was out -- out to get him. DEVIN NUNES [02:13:11.560 - 02:13:13.320]: Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:13:13.320 - 02:13:19.320]: I understand your -- I understand your point, yes, Chairman. [Inaudible] DEVIN NUNES [02:13:19.320 - 02:13:41.560]: You said in your deposition I'm just going to make sure this was your -- just read it back to you. On page 279 for your legal team quote they are all corrupt. This is your -- this is what you said about your conversation with the President so this is your words about what the President told you. GORDON SONDLAND [02:13:41.560 - 02:13:44.040]: This is the May 23 meeting? DEVIN NUNES [02:13:44.040 - 02:13:57.360]: That is correct. They are all corrupt, they are all terrible people and you know I don't want to spend any time with that. And he also said they tried to take me down. GORDON SONDLAND [02:13:57.360 - 02:13:58.800]: That's correct. DEVIN NUNES [02:13:58.800 - 02:14:11.200]: [Inaudible] they tried to take him down I think any logical person that wants to do 2+2 = 4 games would say that that was in the 2016 election wasn't it? GORDON SONDLAND [02:14:11.200 - 02:14:16.720]: I believe that is what he was referring to, yes. Ranking Member. DEVIN NUNES [02:14:16.720 - 02:14:54.280]: So during all of this time and remember in the spring the Democrat's Russia hoax which -- witch hunt is still ongoing. They are still claiming that President Trump is a Russian agent, they are out to get -- they are out to get President Trump at the time. His personal attorney is then interested in trying to figure out okay, who are these Ukrainians that are trying to get to my candidate as those of us the Republicans on this committee who are also trying to get to the bottom of who were these sources in the Steele dossier that the Democrats have paid for? DEVIN NUNES [02:14:54.280 - 02:17:07.600]: The house Republicans wanted to know that all through the spring and even the summer of an event as of today we would still like to know. That is why we have subpoenaed the DNC operatives that they refuse to subpoena. We sent a letter this morning. I doubt we will see those subpoenas. We want to know exactly, get to the bottom of the exactly who were these Democratic operatives that were dirtying up the Trump campaign in 2016 and they just can't get over that the President would send his personal attorney over there to try to get to the bottom of that and ambassador you had very few dealings with Rudy Giuliani, a few text messages. GORDON SONDLAND [02:17:07.600 - 02:17:23.720]: A few text messages and a few phone calls. DEVIN NUNES [02:17:23.720 - 02:17:23.720]: So the whistleblower trying to put together here with their timeline they seem to have a timeline problem because the whistleblower that only they know who they won't subpoena who clearly Mr. Vindman knows who they blocked testimony yesterday from -- would not allow Mr. Vindman to answer our questions that whistleblower says on July 25 that there were all of these promises being made yet the -- I forget what they call it, the drug deal that the Three Amigos were cooking up seems to be there -- their latest. DEVIN NUNES [02:17:23.720 - 02:17:23.720]: You are part of the Three Amigos and the drug deal. Ambassador, were you aware of any drug deal on July 25 when the phone call actually occurred? GORDON SONDLAND [02:17:23.720 - 02:17:23.720]: I don't know about any drug deal. DEVIN NUNES [02:17:23.720 - 02:17:23.760]: Right. And did you know you were part of the Three Amigos? GORDON SONDLAND [02:17:23.760 - 02:17:24.040]: I am. I am a proud part of the Three Amigos. DEVIN NUNES [02:17:24.040 - 02:19:10.200]: And that is the same thing Ambassador Volker said yesterday because by the time that the phone call that supposedly the whistleblower claims was the reason was the original quid pro quo has now got down to we are now a month later where you are involved and their quid pro quo has gotten down to -- down to the low level of well, they want a statement and you didn't even know about anything to do with on July 25 you knew nothing about military aid being withheld? GORDON SONDLAND [02:19:10.200 - 02:19:10.200]: I knew military aid was withheld beginning I believe on July 18 when ambassador Taylor told both of us that that was the case. DEVIN NUNES [02:19:10.200 - 02:19:10.200]: But on July -- but you don't know about -- you were not on the July 25 call. GORDON SONDLAND [02:19:10.200 - 02:19:10.200]: I was not. DEVIN NUNES [02:19:10.200 - 02:19:10.200]: Where you on the call, at all. GORDON SONDLAND [02:19:10.200 - 02:19:10.200]: Again I just read the readout when everyone else did. DEVIN NUNES [02:19:10.200 - 02:19:10.200]: Well we have had -- everyone has testified that it was on the July 25 call that there was no a discussed on the July 25 call. So then you are in the process, you have no idea that this is tied to Burisma or anybody else. You say you don't realize that until the end of August. GORDON SONDLAND [02:19:10.200 - 02:19:10.200]: I didn't realize that a was tied. The Burisma in 2016 piece was much earlier Mr. or -- Ranking Member. DEVIN NUNES [02:19:10.200 - 02:19:10.400]: I am glad you bring up Burisma because this is another issue that the Democrats don't want to go into. They refuse to. Hunter Biden, Hunter Biden could get to the bottom of all of this. He could come in and talk about whether or not it was appropriate for him to receive over $50,000 a month while his dad was vice president and when they actually were able to stop and get an investigator fired. DEVIN NUNES [02:19:10.400 - 02:20:40.960]: They could call in Hunter Biden but they don't want to do it but let's -- let's talk about Burisma, ambassador. I know you are the ambassador to the EU. I think some of the members later will get into whether or not it was appropriate for you to be in Ukraine or not. I believe it was, I think you have a clear mandate -- mandate to do it but you wouldn't be the first ambassador to actually be interested in Burisma. DEVIN NUNES [02:20:40.960 - 02:20:40.960]: Did you know that in September 2015 then ambassador to Ukraine Jeffrey Piatt publicly called for an investigation into Zloch -- Zlochevsky, the president of Burisma? This was the Ukrainian ambassador appointed by President Obama in Ukraine. GORDON SONDLAND [02:20:40.960 - 02:20:40.960]: I wasn't aware of it, no. DEVIN NUNES [02:20:40.960 - 02:20:40.960]: You are not aware of it? GORDON SONDLAND [02:20:40.960 - 02:20:40.960]: No. DEVIN NUNES [02:20:40.960 - 02:20:40.960]: So you would not be the first one to be mentioning that investigation should be done on Burisma because it happened during the Obama administration. Did you know that financial records show Burisma routed more than $3 million to the American accounts tied to Hunter Biden? GORDON SONDLAND [02:20:40.960 - 02:20:40.960]: I did not know that. DEVIN NUNES [02:20:40.960 - 02:20:40.960]: Did you know that Burisma's American lawyers tried to secure a meeting with a new state prosecutor the same day his predecessor Viktor Shokin who the vice president wanted fired was announced? GORDON SONDLAND [02:20:40.960 - 02:20:40.960]: Did not know that. DEVIN NUNES [02:20:40.960 - 02:22:21.440]: We're not going to get to the answer to many of these questions because the witnesses that need to come in and clarify exactly what the Democrats were doing in 2016, you're not -- we're not going to be able to visit with those witnesses. And so it's an inconvenient truth that the Democrats don't want to admit. DEVIN NUNES [02:22:21.440 - 02:23:40.560]: It's their operatives that were dirtying up the Trump campaign, using Ukrainian sources in 2016, and they do not want us to get to the bottom of it. They don't want you, Ambassador, to get to the bottom of it. They don't want the president's personal attorney, even though he's under a special counsel investigation, that they fed into the FBI, that we've dealt with for over three years. DEVIN NUNES [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: They don't want to get to the bottom of that, Ambassador. I think Mr. Castor has some questions for you. STEVE CASTOR [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: Thank you, Mr. Nunes. Good morning, Ambassador. How are you? GORDON SONDLAND [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: Good morning Mr. Castor. STEVE CASTOR [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: Welcome back. You were here all day on the 17th , late into the night, so thank you for the your cooperation with the investigation. Did the president ever tell you personally about any preconditions for anything? GORDON SONDLAND [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: No. STEVE CASTOR [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: Okay, so the president never told you about any preconditions for the aid to be released? GORDON SONDLAND [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: No. STEVE CASTOR [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: The president never told you about any preconditions for a White House meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: Personally, no. STEVE CASTOR [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: The -- you said you didn't have your records or your documents from the State Department, but if you did there wouldn't be any document or record that ties President Trump personally to any of this, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: Well, I don't want to speculate what would be -- STEVE CASTOR [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: Your documents or records. GORDON SONDLAND [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: I don't recall anything like that STEVE CASTOR [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: Okay. Good heavens, okay. You testified Mr. Giuliani's requests for a -- a quid pro quo for the White House meeting -- and you indicated that you believe that was -- he was evincing President Trump's interests, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:23:40.560 - 02:23:40.560]: My contact with Mr. Giuliani began, as I said, very late in the process, after August 1 when I was first introduced to him by a text from Ambassador Volker. So we had already begun those discussions, I believe, with the Ukrainians prior to August 1. So everything was being funneled through others, including Mr. Volker. STEVE CASTOR [02:23:40.560 - 02:24:24.160]: Okay, but you testified that Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the president, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:24:24.160 - 02:24:51.520]: That's our understanding, yes. STEVE CASTOR [02:24:51.520 - 02:25:01.880]: But how did you know that? Who told you? GORDON SONDLAND [02:25:01.880 - 02:25:01.880]: Well when the president says talk to my personal attorney and then Mr. Giuliani as his personal attorney makes certain requests or demands, we assume it's coming from the president. I don't -- I don't -- I'm not testifying that I heard the president tell Mr. Giuliani to tell us, so if that's your question. STEVE CASTOR [02:25:01.880 - 02:25:16.120]: Right, but in your deposition you said the question was at the May 23 meeting when the president said go talk to -- go talk to Rudy, you responded he didn't even say go talk. He said, talk to Rudy. You subsequently said it was sort of like I don't want to talk about this. So it wasn't an order or direction to go talk with Mr. Giuliani, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:25:16.120 - 02:25:38.400]: Our conclusion and the conclusion of the three of us was that if we did not talk to Rudy, nothing would move forward on Ukraine. STEVE CASTOR [02:25:38.400 - 02:25:42.240]: Okay, and then that was May 23, and then you never had any personal communications with Giuliani until August, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:25:42.240 - 02:25:45.000]: That's correct. STEVE CASTOR [02:25:45.000 - 02:26:29.360]: And Volker was handling -- Ambassador Volker was -- was he the primary -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:26:29.360 - 02:26:33.000]: Volker, Perry and others. STEVE CASTOR [02:26:33.000 - 02:27:02.160]: Okay. Ambassador Volker, you testified he's a professional diplomat, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:27:02.160 - 02:27:18.760]: Yes, he is. STEVE CASTOR [02:27:18.760 - 02:27:18.760]: And you said you had a great relationship with him? GORDON SONDLAND [02:27:18.760 - 02:27:18.840]: I do, yes. STEVE CASTOR [02:27:18.840 - 02:27:33.360]: You said he was a very smart guy? GORDON SONDLAND [02:27:33.360 - 02:27:33.480]: Yes. STEVE CASTOR [02:27:33.480 - 02:27:33.680]: Ambassador Yovanovitch said he's a brilliant diplomat, in fact. Do you agree with that? GORDON SONDLAND [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: He's pretty -- pretty smart. STEVE CASTOR [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: You stated that he's one of those people I'd hand my wallet to? GORDON SONDLAND [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: I would. STEVE CASTOR [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: And so did you hear his testimony yesterday? GORDON SONDLAND [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: I did not. STEVE CASTOR [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: Okay, because he didn't -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: I was busy getting ready for you. STEVE CASTOR [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: He didn't have any -- he didn't have any evidence of any of these preconditions, and he was the one most engaged with the Ukrainians, wasn't he? GORDON SONDLAND [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: Yes. STEVE CASTOR [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: Okay. I mean, you testified, and you know this was his full-time job, although he was doing it for free. GORDON SONDLAND [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:33.680]: He was the special envoy. STEVE CASTOR [02:27:33.680 - 02:27:36.280]: And you testified you came in and out of the events, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:27:36.280 - 02:27:36.440]: That's correct. STEVE CASTOR [02:27:36.440 - 02:29:40.160]: Okay. At your deposition we asked you about your communications with the president, and we asked you whether there were so many that it would be impossible to chronicle. And you said no, it wasn't -- wasn't that many, and we went down the path of building a list of communications you remember with the president, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:29:40.160 - 02:29:40.160]: Correct. STEVE CASTOR [02:29:40.160 - 02:29:40.160]: We talked about May 23 in the Oval Office. GORDON SONDLAND [02:29:40.160 - 02:29:40.160]: Yes. STEVE CASTOR [02:29:40.160 - 02:29:40.160]: You mentioned on July 25 before you went to Ukraine you called the president, but there was no material information on the 25th call, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:29:40.160 - 02:29:40.160]: Not that I recall. STEVE CASTOR [02:29:40.160 - 02:29:40.160]: Okay, then Friday Mr. Holmes came in, and I guess his testimony refreshed your recollection? GORDON SONDLAND [02:29:40.160 - 02:29:40.160]: Yeah, what refreshed my recollection was when he mentioned ASAP Rocky. Then all of a sudden it came back to me. STEVE CASTOR [02:29:40.160 - 02:29:40.160]: And talking about the -- President Zelensky loving the president and so forth? GORDON SONDLAND [02:29:40.160 - 02:29:40.160]: Well, the whole thing sort of came back to me after he mentioned ASAP Rocky. STEVE CASTOR [02:29:40.160 - 02:29:40.160]: And then -- then the next time, you know, we tried to unpack this. The next time you talked with the president was -- on the telephone -- was September 9 according to your deposition, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:29:40.160 - 02:31:04.320]: I may have even spoken to him on September 6. But again, I just don't have all the records. I wish I could get them. Then I could answer your questions very easily. STEVE CASTOR [02:31:04.320 - 02:31:11.640]: Okay. But on September 9, at least at your deposition you were extremely clear. You called the president. You said he was feeling cranky that day, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:31:11.640 - 02:31:11.640]: He seemed very cranky to me. STEVE CASTOR [02:31:11.640 - 02:31:11.640]: And you said in no uncertain terms -- and this is on the heel of -- heels of the Bill Taylor text, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:31:11.640 - 02:31:11.640]: Right. STEVE CASTOR [02:31:11.640 - 02:31:11.640]: And why don't you tell us, what did the president say to you on September 9 that you remember? GORDON SONDLAND [02:31:11.640 - 02:31:11.640]: Well, words to the effect -- I decided to ask the president the question in an open-ended fashion because there were so many different scenarios floating around as to what was going on with Ukraine. So rather than ask the president nine different questions, is it this, is it this, is it that, I just said, what do you want from Ukraine? GORDON SONDLAND [02:31:11.640 - 02:32:44.760]: I may have even used a four letter word. And he said I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I just want Zelensky to do the right thing, to do what he ran on, or words to that effect. And that gave me the impetus to respond to Ambassador Taylor with a text that I sent. As I said to Mr. Goldman, it was not an artfully written text. GORDON SONDLAND [02:32:44.760 - 02:32:59.880]: I should have been more specific, put it in quotes, something like that. But basically I wanted Mr. Taylor, Ambassador Taylor, to pick up the ball and take it from there. I had gone as far as I could go. STEVE CASTOR [02:32:59.880 - 02:33:01.320]: And you believed the president, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:33:01.320 - 02:33:09.480]: You know what, I'm not going to characterize whether I believed or didn't believe. I was just trying to convey what he said on the phone. STEVE CASTOR [02:33:09.480 - 02:33:35.000]: Okay, and at that point in time the pause in the aid -- the aid was paused for 55 days -- there was a news article in Politico on August 28 talking about it, so by that point in time the president had been receiving calls from Senators. He had been getting pressure to lift the aid, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:33:35.000 - 02:33:37.440]: That's what I understand, yes. STEVE CASTOR [02:33:37.440 - 02:33:49.840]: I want to turn back to your [Break in video feed] would not occur until there was a public statement from Ukraine committing to the investigations, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:33:49.840 - 02:33:51.000]: Correct. STEVE CASTOR [02:33:51.000 - 02:33:54.120]: And you acknowledge that this is speculation, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:33:54.120 - 02:33:56.680]: It was a presumption. STEVE CASTOR [02:33:56.680 - 02:34:02.520]: Okay, but you -- you -- it was a guess, in fact, I think you even said this morning. GORDON SONDLAND [02:34:02.520 - 02:34:11.600]: Well, I want to say that it goes back to Mr. Goldman's point, or Chairman Schiff's two plus two equals four in my mind at that point. STEVE CASTOR [02:34:11.600 - 02:34:16.680]: Okay, but you didn't have any evidence of that, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:34:16.680 - 02:34:20.800]: Other than the aid wasn't being released, and we weren't getting anywhere with the Ukrainians. STEVE CASTOR [02:34:20.800 - 02:34:37.320]: Okay, but did Ambassador Volker clue you in that that was the issue? I mean, this is a pretty high -- I mean, this is a pretty serious conclusion you've reached without precise evidence. GORDON SONDLAND [02:34:37.320 - 02:35:07.040]: Well, I sent that email to Secretary Pompeo to set up a potential meeting between President Trump and President Zelensky in Warsaw, and when I referred to the logjam, I referred to the logjam in a very inclusive way. Everything was jammed up at that point, and Secretary Pompeo essentially gave me the green light to brief President Zelensky about making those -- those announcements. STEVE CASTOR [02:35:07.040 - 02:35:11.680]: Okay, we can -- we can turn to that. And then that was your email dated what date? GORDON SONDLAND [02:35:11.680 - 02:35:13.800]: Do you have the page there? STEVE CASTOR [02:35:13.800 - 02:35:23.280]: Well, your email to Secretary Pompeo, was that August 11? Sixteen. GORDON SONDLAND [02:35:23.280 - 02:35:25.040]: August 22. STEVE CASTOR [02:35:25.040 - 02:35:38.960]: Okay, so you're asking Secretary Pompeo whether we should block time, and I mean is there any discussion of specific investigations? Is there any discussion of Biden or Burisma or anything linking to aid in this email that you sent to Pompeo? GORDON SONDLAND [02:35:38.960 - 02:35:51.240]: No, this -- this was a proposed briefing that I was going to give President Zelensky, and I was going to call President Zelensky and ask him to say what is in this email. And I was asking essentially President Pompeo's permission to do that, which he said yes. STEVE CASTOR [02:35:51.240 - 02:36:02.760]: But -- but -- at that -- at that point in time, we're talking about investigations into -- into the origins of the 2016 election. We're not talking about -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:36:02.760 - 02:36:04.040]: -- And -- and Burisma -- STEVE CASTOR [02:36:04.040 - 02:36:06.160]: -- Anything to do with Joe Biden. GORDON SONDLAND [02:36:06.160 - 02:36:11.800]: Joe Biden did not come up. STEVE CASTOR [02:36:11.800 - 02:36:42.040]: Okay. Stepping back a page to your -- your email to the State Department on August 11th, you emailed Secretary Pompeo and you say "Kurt and I negotiated a statement from Zelensky to be delivered for our review in a day or two." And the question I have here is that, I mean, that statement never was issued. STEVE CASTOR [02:36:42.040 - 02:37:02.600]: In fact, Ambassador Volker has testified that he didn't think it was a good idea and ultimately the Ukrainians didn't think it was a good idea. And so, the -- the statement never reached a -- a finalized state. GORDON SONDLAND [02:37:02.600 - 02:37:04.920]: That's correct. STEVE CASTOR [02:37:04.920 - 02:37:15.920]: But even if it had, it -- it doesn't talk about Biden's or Burisma or anything insidious, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:37:15.920 - 02:37:22.960]: Well, the statement, as -- as I recall, would have mentioned the 2016 elections/DNC server and Burisma. STEVE CASTOR [02:37:22.960 - 02:37:24.200]: Okay. GORDON SONDLAND [02:37:24.200 - 02:37:27.880]: It would not have mentioned the Bidens. STEVE CASTOR [02:37:27.880 - 02:37:36.560]: And have you heard Ambassador Volker, how he talks about what might be an investigation into Burisma? GORDON SONDLAND [02:37:36.560 - 02:37:37.320]: No. STEVE CASTOR [02:37:37.320 - 02:37:52.360]: Okay. I mean, he has said that if there were Ukrainians engaged in violations of Ukrainian law, then the prosecutor general of the new administration ought to investigate that. Did Ambassador Volker ever relate that to you? GORDON SONDLAND [02:37:52.360 - 02:37:56.800]: No, we just talked in generic terms about "investigating Burisma." STEVE CASTOR [02:37:56.800 - 02:38:00.480]: Okay. But it had nothing to do with Vice President Biden. GORDON SONDLAND [02:38:00.480 - 02:38:06.200]: I had never heard Vice President Biden come up until very late in the game. STEVE CASTOR [02:38:06.200 - 02:38:07.040]: When? GORDON SONDLAND [02:38:07.040 - 02:38:19.800]: I don't recall the exact date, but when it all sort of came together, maybe after the transcript of the July 25th call. I don't know. I don't know the exact date when I made the connection. STEVE CASTOR [02:38:19.800 - 02:38:20.360]: Okay. I want to -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:38:20.360 - 02:38:25.240]: -- Apparently a lot of people did not make the connection. STEVE CASTOR [02:38:25.240 - 02:38:58.520]: Okay. I want to turn to the -- the letter from Senator Johnson. He -- when he -- he heard about some of these issues and the hold of the aid, he -- he wanted -- he called the president. He called the president on August 31st. It's page six of his letter. Senator Johnson states, or he writes, I asked him, the president, whether there was some kind of arrangement where Ukraine would take some action and the hold would be lifted. STEVE CASTOR [02:38:58.520 - 02:39:26.160]: Without hesitation, President Trump immediately denied such an arrangement existed. Senator Johnson quotes the president is saying no. And he -- he prefaced it with a -- a different word. No way. I would never do that. Who told you that? I have -- Senator Johnson says I have accurately characterized the president's reaction as adamant, vehement, and angry. STEVE CASTOR [02:39:26.160 - 02:39:51.920]: Senator Johnson's telephone call with the president wasn't a public event. It -- it was capturing a genuine, you know, moment with the president. And the -- and he had -- at this point in time on August 31st, he was adamant, vehement, and angry that there was no connections to -- to aid. There were no preconditions. GORDON SONDLAND [02:39:51.920 - 02:40:21.160]: Yeah, I had my meeting with Senator Johnson where, again, I made the presumption that I had made to both Mr. Yermak and the email I had sent to Secretary Pompeo, and we were sort of ruminating about what was going on, and Senator Johnson, I believe, said I'm going to call President Trump, you know, and find out. GORDON SONDLAND [02:40:21.160 - 02:40:29.320]: I mean, he obviously had that phone call. I wasn't involved in that phone call. STEVE CASTOR [02:40:29.320 - 02:40:38.640]: Okay. But you have no reason to disbelieve that wasn't the way it went down, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:40:38.640 - 02:40:40.280]: No, no reason to disbelieve -- STEVE CASTOR [02:40:40.280 - 02:40:41.080]: -- Okay -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:40:41.080 - 02:40:42.320]: -- Senator Johnson. STEVE CASTOR [02:40:42.320 - 02:41:03.600]: And -- and now that you've had some time since your deposition and you submitted an -- an addendum relating to the Warsaw get together with Mr. Yermak, as you sit here today, I mean, are we missing a lot of your communications with the president? GORDON SONDLAND [02:41:03.600 - 02:41:38.280]: I haven't had that many communications with the president. And in fact, a bunch of the call records that I have had access to, just the short period of time on the call indicates I never got through. In other words, I was put on hold for one or two minutes and the call never connected, so I really can't give you an accurate count of how many conversations. GORDON SONDLAND [02:41:38.280 - 02:41:51.520]: Plus, Mr. Castor, I've had a lot of conversations with the president about completely unrelated matters that have nothing to do with Ukraine. STEVE CASTOR [02:41:51.520 - 02:41:57.840]: So -- but you don't think we're missing any material conversations that you had with the president? GORDON SONDLAND [02:41:57.840 - 02:42:02.280]: I -- I don't recall any material conversations today as I'm sitting here. STEVE CASTOR [02:42:02.280 - 02:42:03.600]: Or -- or with Rudy Giuliani? GORDON SONDLAND [02:42:03.600 - 02:42:20.360]: Yeah. My -- my memory about the conversations with Rudy Giuliani, whether they were direct, whether they were conference calls with Ambassador Volker or Secretary Perry is really vague without seeing the -- you know, the -- the call -- the call logs. STEVE CASTOR [02:42:20.360 - 02:42:29.640]: Are there any other key fact witnesses that would help us, you know, get to the -- get to the bottom of whether there was any -- any link to the aid and the -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:42:29.640 - 02:42:39.360]: -- Maybe Brian McCormack, the chief of staff for Secretary Perry, who was involved in and out as well. STEVE CASTOR [02:42:39.360 - 02:42:46.720]: Okay. Now, the -- the aid was ultimately lifted on September 11th, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:42:46.720 - 02:42:48.360]: I believe that's correct. STEVE CASTOR [02:42:48.360 - 02:43:19.920]: Okay. And Senator Johnson, in his letter on page 6, quotes the president on August 31st, "Ron, I understand your position. We're reviewing it now and you'll probably like my final decision." So, even on August 31st, and this is before any congressional investigation started, the -- the -- the president was signaling to Senator Johnson that he was going to lift the aid -- lift -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:43:19.920 - 02:43:21.120]: -- Sound -- STEVE CASTOR [02:43:21.120 - 02:43:21.560]: -- The -- lift the pause -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:43:21.560 - 02:43:22.760]: -- Sounds like it, yeah. STEVE CASTOR [02:43:22.760 - 02:43:41.040]: Okay. And most of the other witnesses we talked to, whether it's from the Department of Defense or OMB or -- you know, have told us that all along during this 55 day. They genuinely believed the hold would be lift -- lifted. Was that your feeling too at the time? GORDON SONDLAND [02:43:41.040 - 02:43:52.960]: I didn't know because every time I asked about the hold I was never given a straight answer as to why it had been put in place to begin with. STEVE CASTOR [02:43:52.960 - 02:43:55.800]: Now, what do you know about the Ukrainians' knowledge of the hold? GORDON SONDLAND [02:43:55.800 - 02:44:13.680]: Oh, that's very vague. I don't know if the Politico article triggered it. I don't know if they were told by Mr. Giuliani. It would be pure, you know, guesswork on my part, speculation. I don't -- I don't know. STEVE CASTOR [02:44:13.680 - 02:44:25.720]: Okay. I mean, we -- during your deposition, you -- you testified that you did not believe the Ukrainians believed the -- the -- were aware of the hold until the Politico article. GORDON SONDLAND [02:44:25.720 - 02:44:45.600]: Yeah. Again, I think -- I think I testified that I was not clear on the exact dates of when these things -- when the light went on. There were a lot of conversations going on with the Ukrainians by a lot of people, so I don't know who communicated what to them. STEVE CASTOR [02:44:45.600 - 02:45:04.320]: We have testimony from several witnesses that the president was concerned about foreign aid generally, and so he was -- he had an appetite to put holds on -- on aid because he was trying to be a good steward of U.S. taxpayer dollars. Do you -- do -- do you agree with that? GORDON SONDLAND [02:45:04.320 - 02:45:07.200]: I'm aware that that's been his position on aid in other matters, yes. STEVE CASTOR [02:45:07.200 - 02:45:15.360]: And are you way -- aware that he was also interested in better understanding the contributions of our European allies? GORDON SONDLAND [02:45:15.360 - 02:45:17.000]: That I'm definitely aware of. STEVE CASTOR [02:45:17.000 - 02:45:26.400]: And there was some back and forth between the State Department officials trying to better understand that information for the president? GORDON SONDLAND [02:45:26.400 - 02:45:28.440]: Yes, that's correct. STEVE CASTOR [02:45:28.440 - 02:45:33.600]: And how do you know that wasn't the reason for the hold? GORDON SONDLAND [02:45:33.600 - 02:45:34.320]: I don't. STEVE CASTOR [02:45:34.320 - 02:45:40.760]: But yet you -- you -- you speculate that there was, you know, a -- a link to the -- this announcement. GORDON SONDLAND [02:45:40.760 - 02:45:42.200]: I presumed it, yes. STEVE CASTOR [02:45:42.200 - 02:46:13.600]: Okay. I want to turn a -- quickly to the July 10th meeting. The -- the July 10th meeting in Ambassador Bolton's office involving Ambassador Volker, Mr. Danyliuk, Mr. Yermak has been the subject of some controversy. Ambassador Volker yesterday testified that it wasn't until the end of the meeting -- Mr. Danyliuk, he said, was going through some -- some real detailed -- some real detailed information about some of the plans he had. STEVE CASTOR [02:46:13.600 - 02:46:26.000]: But it wasn't until the end of the -- the meeting mist -- Ambassador Volker recollects that you mentioned something general about investigations. What do you remember from that meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [02:46:26.000 - 02:46:52.760]: Well, again, I'm not going to dispute Ambassador Volker's recollection if he -- particularly if he had notes. I -- I know that the desire to have the 2016 election, DNC server, and Burisma were already being discussed by then. Again, I had no direct contact with Mr. Giuliani on -- on July 10th but through Ambassador Volker. STEVE CASTOR [02:46:52.760 - 02:46:53.640]: Um-hmm. GORDON SONDLAND [02:46:53.640 - 02:47:22.480]: And I probably mentioned that this needs to happen in order to move the process forward. That seem to be the conventional wisdom at the time. I don't recall any abrupt ending of the meeting or people storming out or anything like that. That would have been very memorable, if -- if someone had stormed out of a meeting based on something I said. STEVE CASTOR [02:47:22.480 - 02:47:29.520]: Okay. And nobody accused you at that point in time of being involved with some sort of drug deal? GORDON SONDLAND [02:47:29.520 - 02:47:31.040]: No. STEVE CASTOR [02:47:31.040 - 02:47:38.320]: Did Dr. Hill ever relate to you her concerns about you being involved in a drug deal? GORDON SONDLAND [02:47:38.320 - 02:47:38.360]: Never. STEVE CASTOR [02:47:38.360 - 02:47:46.360]: Okay. So, you were surprised when testimony emerged that she thought there was a -- a drug deal going on? GORDON SONDLAND [02:47:46.360 - 02:47:47.280]: I was shocked. STEVE CASTOR [02:47:47.280 - 02:47:57.160]: Okay. And in fact, after the meeting, you went out and you took a picture, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:47:57.160 - 02:48:15.240]: Yeah, we -- Ambassador Bolton -- or his assistant indicated that he was out of time, that he needed -- he had another meeting to attend. And we all walked out of the White House. Everyone was smiling. Everyone was happy. And we took a picture on the lawn on a nice sunny day. STEVE CASTOR [02:48:15.240 - 02:48:19.440]: Okay. Then did -- did you retire to the wardroom? GORDON SONDLAND [02:48:19.440 - 02:48:43.400]: I think Secretary Perry asked to use the wardroom to continue the conversation. And the real subject that was under debate, and it wasn't a angry debate, it was a debate, just should the call from President Trump to President Zelensky be made prior to the parliamentary elections in Ukraine or after the parliamentary elections. GORDON SONDLAND [02:48:43.400 - 02:48:45.600]: And there was good reason for both. GORDON SONDLAND [02:48:45.600 - 02:49:09.640]: We felt Ambassador Perry, Ambassador Volker and I thought it would help President Zelensky to have President Trump speak to him prior to the parliamentary elections because it would give President Zelensky more credibility and ultimately he would do better with his people in the parliamentary elections others I believe pushed back and said no, it's not appropriate to do it before, it should be done after and ultimately it was done after. STEVE CASTOR [02:49:09.640 - 02:49:13.360]: There is no mention of Vice President Biden in the wardroom? GORDON SONDLAND [02:49:13.360 - 02:49:15.240]: Not that I remember, no. STEVE CASTOR [02:49:15.240 - 02:49:16.760]: For any specific investigation? GORDON SONDLAND [02:49:16.760 - 02:49:19.040]: Just the generic investigations. STEVE CASTOR [02:49:19.040 - 02:49:22.520]: When again did the Vice President Biden nexus come to your attention? GORDON SONDLAND [02:49:22.520 - 02:49:36.440]: Very late. Again I don't -- I can't recall the exact date the light bulb went on. It couldn't have been as late as once the transcript was out but it was always Burisma to me and I didn't know about the connection between Burisma and Biden. STEVE CASTOR [02:49:36.440 - 02:49:47.520]: And to the best of your knowledge you never understood that anyone was asking Ukrainians to investigate U.S. persons, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:49:47.520 - 02:49:50.200]: Ukrainians to investigate U.S. persons? STEVE CASTOR [02:49:50.200 - 02:49:50.840]: Right. GORDON SONDLAND [02:49:50.840 - 02:49:51.080]: No. STEVE CASTOR [02:49:51.080 - 02:49:51.280]: Okay. GORDON SONDLAND [02:49:51.280 - 02:49:51.680]: No. STEVE CASTOR [02:49:51.680 - 02:50:03.640]: And just -- just to sort of being clear ultimately the a was lifted on September 11 there was never any announcement by the Ukrainians about any investigations they were going to do, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:50:03.640 - 02:50:05.280]: Correct. STEVE CASTOR [02:50:05.280 - 02:50:10.000]: The Ukrainians never to your knowledge started any of these investigations, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:50:10.000 - 02:50:11.000]: Not to my knowledge. STEVE CASTOR [02:50:11.000 - 02:50:30.400]: And consequently these allegations that there was a quid pro quo that had to be in force before the aid is released they never came to fruition, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:50:30.400 - 02:50:32.480]: I don't believe so. STEVE CASTOR [02:50:32.480 - 02:50:43.240]: Want to just step back a little bit and just verify with you that the President had some genuinely deep rooted concerns about corruption in Ukraine, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:50:43.240 - 02:50:46.760]: That is what he expressed to us, yes. STEVE CASTOR [02:50:46.760 - 02:51:02.640]: Okay and you -- you believed him, right, given his business dealings in -- in the region? GORDON SONDLAND [02:51:02.640 - 02:51:04.600]: When we had the conversation I did. STEVE CASTOR [02:51:04.600 - 02:51:13.120]: And when you first started discussing the concerns the President had with corruption Burisma wasn't the only company that was mentioned, right? GORDON SONDLAND [02:51:13.120 - 02:51:25.160]: It was a generic as I think I testified to chairmanship it was a generic corruption, oligarchs, just bad stuff going on in the Ukraine. STEVE CASTOR [02:51:25.160 - 02:51:29.120]: But other companies came up didn't they? GORDON SONDLAND [02:51:29.120 - 02:51:38.520]: I don't know if they were mentioned specifically. It might have been [Inaudible] because we were working on another issue with the [Inaudible] so that might have been one of them. STEVE CASTOR [02:51:38.520 - 02:51:45.320]: At one point in your deposition I believe you said yeah [Inaudible] comes up at every conversation. Is that fair? GORDON SONDLAND [02:51:45.320 - 02:51:45.920]: Probably. STEVE CASTOR [02:51:45.920 - 02:51:58.880]: You had I guess Doctor Hill at one point attributed to you the terminology that the President has given you a large remit. Are you familiar with her assertion of that? GORDON SONDLAND [02:51:58.880 - 02:52:01.560]: I didn't understand what she was talking about. STEVE CASTOR [02:52:01.560 - 02:52:13.280]: Okay. But you -- you have and we got into this a little bit in your deposition you know you said that the President gave you a special assignment with regard to Ukraine, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:52:13.280 - 02:53:20.520]: Well, when the President appointed me to the -- as a U.S. ambassador to the European Union Ukraine was part of my portfolio. What made my assignment larger than just being part of my portfolio were the unique circumstances where there was no current sitting ambassador in Ukraine and there was a new President in Ukraine and the discussions that we had, the three amigos Perry, vulgar and I was that Ukraine needed the extraordinary high level support as it could get from the United States during this period which we cleared with both Ambassador Bolt -- Bolton and with Chief of Staff Mulvaney to continue working on it. So by extension yes, if -- if the national security advisor and the chief of staff approve your remit it really is coming from the President. STEVE CASTOR [02:53:20.520 - 02:53:26.400]: Okay. When we ask you that at the deposition you said I was spending a little bit. GORDON SONDLAND [02:53:26.400 - 02:53:33.440]: I was spending about something else I think in the art -- in the interview in -- in Kiev. STEVE CASTOR [02:53:33.440 - 02:53:47.640]: And you further testified so when I said the President gave me and then assignment it wasn't really the president, it was the Secretary through the president and -- and that is where I receive my direction, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:53:47.640 - 02:53:48.600]: Correct. STEVE CASTOR [02:53:48.600 - 02:53:57.960]: Did Ambassador Taylor ever bring in the concerns to your attention about these so-called the channel he dubbed irregular? GORDON SONDLAND [02:53:57.960 - 02:54:39.080]: No, in fact the opposite. When he came to post I think I know I called him or he called me. I think he spoke with Secretary Perry and Ambassador Volker separately and in the course of the first few weeks he was highly appreciative that a new ambassador coming to post like -- like himself was getting the kind of support he was getting from all three of us having a cabinet member, a special Envoy and a fellow ambassador all helping to raise the profile of Ukraine. GORDON SONDLAND [02:54:39.080 - 02:54:42.400]: He was highly appreciative and highly complementary. STEVE CASTOR [02:54:42.400 - 02:54:45.440]: And you maintain an open -- open line with him, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:54:45.440 - 02:55:03.000]: Correct. I think there are a number of text some of which I have an some of which I don't where he is reaching out constantly to me and to the others for advice and help. JOAQUIN CASTRO [02:55:03.000 - 02:55:29.880]: Okay. We had I think try to count them up there's 215 or something text messages between you, Volker and Ambassador Taylor during the -- the early August timeframe. Does that -- does that make sense to you? Is that -- GORDON SONDLAND [02:55:29.880 - 02:55:43.040]: Yeah, I think he -- I think Taylor started in late June or early July was when he first took post and I think we began communicating fairly shortly thereafter. STEVE CASTOR [02:55:43.040 - 02:55:52.920]: And he -- he never communicated any concerns to you during this time frame that he -- he had issues with what was going on? GORDON SONDLAND [02:55:52.920 - 02:55:55.120]: What do you mean by what was going on? STEVE CASTOR [02:55:55.120 - 02:55:59.320]: This request for some sort of investigation. GORDON SONDLAND [02:55:59.320 - 02:56:19.240]: Not in the early stages you know as time went on his emails began to be a little more pointed and frantic and that is when we had very little visibility as to what was going on either. I think it had to do more with the aid and as to why the aid was suspended in. STEVE CASTOR [02:56:19.240 - 02:56:28.960]: And -- and ultimately you put a period on that issue by having these September 9 communication with the President, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:56:28.960 - 02:56:30.880]: That is current. STEVE CASTOR [02:56:30.880 - 02:56:40.160]: And when you shared that feedback with Ambassador Taylor was -- was he satisfied that this issue is now behind him? GORDON SONDLAND [02:56:40.160 - 02:56:53.960]: I don't really know the cause he responded when I said get a hold of the Secretary. He said I agree and I never knew whether he reached out to the Secretary or not. That was sort of the end of that -- STEVE CASTOR [02:56:53.960 - 02:57:09.640]: At one point in your text you said let's get on the phone right and you said you are an individual that doesn't like to walk through these issues on text when you can talk about it on the telephone, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [02:57:09.640 - 02:57:17.160]: I say that to everybody when something becomes more substantive than just a few lines of text I say let's talk. STEVE CASTOR [02:57:17.160 - 02:57:20.120]: Okay. And did you talk with Ambassador Taylor? GORDON SONDLAND [02:57:20.120 - 02:57:48.320]: I -- I don't recall. I mean I don't recall whether we spoke right after that, whether he called the Secretary I -- I basically Mr. Castor wanted to get the notion across that I have gone as far as I can go with this. You -- you need to pick up the -- you are the ambassador, you need to pick up the ball and run with it at this point. STEVE CASTOR [02:57:48.320 - 02:57:56.360]: Okay. And just getting back to the irregular channel did anyone else express any concerns to you about this so-called irregular channel? GORDON SONDLAND [02:57:56.360 - 02:58:39.680]: I'm not sure how someone could characterize something as an irregular channel when you are talking to the President of the United States, the Secretary of state, the national security advisor, the chief of staff for the White House, the Secretary of Energy, I don't know how that is irregular. If a bunch of folks that are not in that channel are agreed for some reason for not being included I don't know how they can consider us to be the irregular channel and they to be the regular channel when it's the leadership that makes the decisions. STEVE CASTOR [02:58:39.680 - 02:58:47.720]: And so the -- the concerns you know raised were never brought to -- were never brought to a head? GORDON SONDLAND [02:58:47.720 - 02:59:20.600]: Well, they were never raised. They were never raised. No one said back off of Ukraine, this is dangerous, you are doing something that is on toward, we have concerns. There was a bad phone call on July 25. There is talk about a drug cocktail or something. No one ever said that to me by phone, by text, by email. GORDON SONDLAND [02:59:20.600 - 02:59:38.120]: I don't remember anybody sounding in the alarm bell because of course had someone mentioned that I would have sat up and taken notice. Everyone's hair was on fire but no one decided to talk to us. STEVE CASTOR [02:59:38.120 - 03:00:04.320]: You -- you know when you -- when you talk in your statement about in the absence of any credible explanation for the suspension of aid I later came to believe it was just speculation, it was your guess that the reason I'm sure in the security aid would not occur until there was a public statement from Ukraine committing to the investigations of 2016 STEVE CASTOR [03:00:04.320 - 03:00:12.360]: and I believe you said that, at this point, you believed everyone, everyone knew -- knew this. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:00:12.360 - 03:00:38.120]: I think once that Politico article broke, it started making the rounds that, you know, if you can't get a White House meeting without the statement, what makes you think you're going to get a, you know, $400 million check? Again, that was my presumption. STEVE CASTOR [03:00:38.120 - 03:00:40.680]: Okay. But you had no evidence to prove that, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:00:40.680 - 03:00:41.960]: That's correct. STEVE CASTOR [03:00:41.960 - 03:00:48.960]: You know, you stated that you haven't been able to access your -- your records. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:00:48.960 - 03:00:56.240]: Not all of them. And there are lots of notes, records, readouts of calls, can't get to them. STEVE CASTOR [03:00:56.240 - 03:01:01.800]: And -- but you've also stated that you don't take notes, right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:01:01.800 - 03:01:06.240]: I don't take notes, but there are a lot of others out there. STEVE CASTOR [03:01:06.240 - 03:01:20.200]: And you freely admit that, you know, when [Inaudible] asked in your deposition we put together a list of all the times you said you don't recall. It's like two pages long. So -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:01:20.200 - 03:01:21.240]: Is that all? STEVE CASTOR [03:01:21.240 - 03:01:31.400]: So, you know, you don't -- on a lot of these questions, I mean there's nuance, there are ambiguities, and we don't have records. We don't have notes. And we don't have recollections, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:01:31.400 - 03:02:10.080]: Right. I mean, it's -- it's situational things that sort of trigger memory, especially when I'm -- you know, I'm dealing with the European Union. I'm dealing with the 28 member countries. I'm dealing with other countries that are not in the European Union that are part of my mandate. I'm dealing with the White House leadership. GORDON SONDLAND [03:02:10.080 - 03:02:47.200]: There's a lot of stuff to juggle, and as I said in my -- in my opening statement, a phone call for me with the president of the United States, or the president of fill-in the blank country, while people who get a call like that maybe once in a lifetime, a call like that might be very memorable. They might remember every single thing about it. I'm doing that all day long, and I'm not saying it in a way of being braggadocio or anything like that, but it's part of my routine day. GORDON SONDLAND [03:02:47.200 - 03:03:04.640]: So all of these calls, these meetings with very important people tend to sort of blend together until I have someone that can show me what we discussed, what the subject was. Then all of a sudden it comes back. STEVE CASTOR [03:03:04.640 - 03:03:37.320]: I mean, we're trying to get to the facts here. We're trying to find out what actually happened, what's reliable, what's accurate. Bill Taylor kept notes. He brought a little notebook in his pocket at his deposition, and he held it up, and he says when I'm not at my desk and I'm on the phone, I use this notebook. STEVE CASTOR [03:03:37.320 - 03:04:07.680]: When I'm at my desk, I use a notebook. George Kent said he wrote just innumerable memos to the file. Catherine Croft, she testified that she didn't believe George Kent's notes would be accurate. And so you know, we have all this, you know, back and forth, but you know, as it -- as we get to the end here, you don't have records. STEVE CASTOR [03:04:07.680 - 03:04:21.760]: You don't have your notes because you didn't take notes. You don't have a lot of recollections. I mean, this is like the trifecta of unreliability. Isn't -- isn't that true? GORDON SONDLAND [03:04:21.760 - 03:04:41.040]: Well, what I'm trying to do today is to use the limited information I have to be as forthcoming as possible with you and the rest of the committee. And as these recollections have been refreshed by subsequent testimony, by some texts and emails that I've now had access to, I think I've filled in a lot of blanks. STEVE CASTOR [03:04:41.040 - 03:04:54.040]: But a lot of it's speculation. A lot of it is your guess, and we're talking about, you know, an impeachment of the president of the United States. So the evidence here ought to be pretty darn good. GORDON SONDLAND [03:04:54.040 - 03:05:21.000]: I've been very clear as to when I was presuming, and I was presuming on the aid. On the other things, Mr. Castor, I did have some texts that I read from. So when it comes to those, I'll rely on those texts because I don't have any reason to believe that those texts were, you know, falsely sent or that there is some subterfuge there. GORDON SONDLAND [03:05:21.000 - 03:05:24.160]: They are what they are. They say what they say. STEVE CASTOR [03:05:24.160 - 03:05:26.720]: Okay. Thank you, sir. GORDON SONDLAND [03:05:26.720 - 03:05:27.320]: Thank you. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:05:27.320 - 03:05:49.280]: The time of the gentleman has expired. We'll now move to a second staff-led round of 30 minutes. Mr. Volker, I just have a few questions before I turn it back to Mr. Goldman. You testified in response to my colleagues in the minority something along the lines of a lot of people did not make the connection between Burisma and Biden. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:05:49.280 - 03:06:31.040]: I think a lot of people have real difficulty understanding that. Tim Morrison testified that I think it took him all of doing a Google search to find out, oh, this is the significance of Burisma. It involves the Bidens. Are you saying during all this time up until the call you never made the connection between Burisma and the Bidens? ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:06:31.040 - 03:06:48.640]: You just thought that the president and Rudy Giuliani were interested in this one particular Ukrainian company? GORDON SONDLAND [03:06:48.640 - 03:06:55.480]: Again, my role, Mr. Chairman, was just to get the meeting. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:06:55.480 - 03:07:17.720]: I understand that, but my question is are you saying that for months and months, notwithstanding everything Rudy Giuliani was saying on TV and all the discussion with Rudy Giuliani, that you never put Burisma together with the Bidens? GORDON SONDLAND [03:07:17.720 - 03:07:26.760]: I didn't. And I wasn't paying attention to what Mr. Giuliani was saying on TV. We were talking to him directly. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:07:26.760 - 03:07:50.480]: Let me ask -- let me ask you this. Ambassador Volker testified yesterday to a similar epiphany, for lack of a better word. This is what he said. In hindsight I now understand that others saw the idea of investigating possible corruption involving the Ukrainian company Burisma as equivalent to investigating former Vice President Biden. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:07:50.480 - 03:08:20.120]: I saw them very different -- as very different, the former being appropriate and unremarkable, the latter being unacceptable. In retrospect, I should have seen that connection differently, and had I done so, I would have raised my own objections. Does that sum up your views as well? GORDON SONDLAND [03:08:20.120 - 03:08:22.120]: It does. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:08:22.120 - 03:08:57.640]: Now I think you were asked a question with a bit of a incorrect premise by my colleagues in the minority about Fiona Hill saying that -- referring to a drug deal between you and Mr. Mulvaney. It was Ambassador Bolton who made the comment that he didn't want to be part of any drug deal that Ambassador Sondland and Mulvaney were cooking up. No one thinks they're talking about a literal drug deal here, or a drug cocktail. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:08:57.640 - 03:09:22.440]: The import, I think, of the ambassador's comments is quite clear, that he believed that this bargain, this quid pro quo as you've described it over a meeting, the investigations to get the meeting was not something he wanted to be a part of. What I want to ask you about is he makes reference in that drug deal to a drug deal cooked up by you and Mulvaney. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:09:22.440 - 03:09:39.800]: It's the reference to Mulvaney that I want to ask you about. You've testified that Mulvaney was aware of this quid pro quo, of this condition that the Ukrainians had to meet that is announcing these public investigations to get the White House meeting. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:09:39.800 - 03:09:40.800]: Yeah, a lot of people were aware of it, and -- ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:09:40.800 - 03:09:42.320]: Including Amba -- including Mr. Mulvaney? GORDON SONDLAND [03:09:42.320 - 03:09:42.600]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:09:42.600 - 03:09:46.480]: And including the secretary of state? GORDON SONDLAND [03:09:46.480 - 03:09:46.840]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:09:46.840 - 03:10:05.560]: Now have you seen the acting chief of staff's press conference in which he acknowledged that the military aid was withheld in part because of a desire to get that 2016 investigation you've talked about? GORDON SONDLAND [03:10:05.560 - 03:10:11.720]: I don't think I saw it live. I saw it later, yeah. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:10:11.720 - 03:10:19.720]: So you saw him acknowledge publicly what you have confirmed, too, that Mr. Mulvaney understood that two plus two equals four? Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:10:19.720 - 03:10:28.760]: Well, again, I didn't know that the aid was conclusively tied. I was presuming. He was in a position to say yes it was or no it wasn't because -- ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:10:28.760 - 03:10:32.160]: And he said yes, it was, did he not? GORDON SONDLAND [03:10:32.160 - 03:10:33.520]: He said yes, it was. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:10:33.520 - 03:10:34.440]: Mr. Goldman. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:10:34.440 - 03:11:09.600]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you again, Ambassador Sondland. We do appreciate your efforts to refresh your recollection through the documents, and we understand -- we share your frustration in not having the documents to help guide this investigation. So we do appreciate those efforts. One of the documents that you provided to us goes back to the conversation you and the chairman were having about Mr. Mulvaney, and you had been trying for some time before the July 25 call to set up that call. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:11:09.600 - 03:11:10.280]: Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:11:10.280 - 03:11:15.480]: To set up the call between President Trump and President Zelensky, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:11:15.480 - 03:11:25.080]: Correct, yes. And I want to show you an email that you reference in your opening statement that is a July 19 email. And who -- who is this from? GORDON SONDLAND [03:11:25.080 - 03:11:34.840]: It looks like it's -- is it from me? I don't know. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:11:34.840 - 03:11:36.440]: It's from you, I believe. GORDON SONDLAND [03:11:36.440 - 03:11:40.440]: Yeah, it's from me to -- to the group. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:11:40.440 - 03:11:42.440]: Now, who is the group? GORDON SONDLAND [03:11:42.440 - 03:11:53.520]: People mentioned on the email, Blair, Kenna, McCormack, Mulvaney, Perry, Pompeo. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:11:53.520 - 03:11:57.520]: And who's Robert Blair? GORDON SONDLAND [03:11:57.520 - 03:12:01.680]: I believe he's a deputy chief of staff or a adviser to the chief of staff. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:12:01.680 - 03:12:09.080]: And you've already told us that Lisa Kenna is the executive secretary for Secretary Pompeo. Who's Brian McCormack? GORDON SONDLAND [03:12:09.080 - 03:12:12.320]: The chief of staff for -- he was the chief of staff for Secretary Perry. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:12:12.320 - 03:12:24.120]: And then we -- we see Mr. Mulvaney, Secretary Perry, and Secretary Pompeo. Can you read what you wrote on July 19th to this group, please? GORDON SONDLAND [03:12:24.120 - 03:12:43.480]: He is prepared to receive POTUS call. Will assure him that he intends to run a fully transparent investigation, will turn over every stone. He would greatly appreciate a call prior to Sunday so he can put out some media about a friendly and productive call, no details, prior to Ukraine election on Sunday. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:12:43.480 - 03:12:50.160]: So, Sunday was the 21st, which was the date of the parliamentary elections in Ukraine, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:12:50.160 - 03:12:51.720]: That's right. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:12:51.720 - 03:13:04.040]: When you say will assure him that he intends to run a fully transparent investigation and will "turn over every stone," what do you mean there? GORDON SONDLAND [03:13:04.040 - 03:13:11.440]: I'm referring to the Burisma and the 2016/DNC server investigations. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:13:11.440 - 03:13:28.800]: Later that evening, Secretary Perry responds just to you and Brian McCormack, saying Mick just confirmed the call being set up for tomorrow by NSC, RP. And then a little later, Mr. Mulvaney replies to all, saying I asked NSC to set it up for tomorrow. Were these the only responses that you received to this email? GORDON SONDLAND [03:13:28.800 - 03:13:33.200]: I -- I don't know. If I -- if I have, I would show them. I don't -- I don't know. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:13:33.200 - 03:13:46.120]: No one wrote back to you and said what are you talking about in terms of these investigations and turning over every stone? GORDON SONDLAND [03:13:46.120 - 03:14:03.720]: No, there was a chain, and I don't know if it's part of this email or a subsequent email, where I believe Ambassador Bolton pushed back and said he did not want a call to President Zelensky made by President Trump until after the parliamentary elections. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:14:03.720 - 03:14:13.840]: So, that would explain why it was moved from the next day, July 20th, to the 25th, right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:14:13.840 - 03:14:15.240]: That's right. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:14:15.240 - 03:14:18.360]: But Ambassador Bolton is not on this email, is he? GORDON SONDLAND [03:14:18.360 - 03:14:20.440]: I don't think he is, no. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:14:20.440 - 03:14:38.760]: Now, you were asked by Mr. Castor if there are any other key witnesses who might be able to help with our investigation. And you mentioned Brian McCormack, right, the chief of staff for Secretary Perry. GORDON SONDLAND [03:14:38.760 - 03:14:39.440]: I did. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:14:39.440 - 03:14:41.760]: You are aware that the committee subpoenaed him, are you not? GORDON SONDLAND [03:14:41.760 - 03:14:42.680]: I wasn't aware of that. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:14:42.680 - 03:14:49.240]: And that he refused to come testify. Are you also aware that Mr. Mulvaney was subpoenaed by the committee and refused to come testify? GORDON SONDLAND [03:14:49.240 - 03:14:53.200]: I did read that in the newspaper, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:14:53.200 - 03:14:59.680]: Are you also aware that Robert Blair was subpoenaed and refused to come testify? GORDON SONDLAND [03:14:59.680 - 03:15:01.480]: I think I'm aware of that. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:15:01.480 - 03:15:07.880]: And that Secretary Perry was asked to come testify and refused? GORDON SONDLAND [03:15:07.880 - 03:15:09.400]: I am aware of that as well. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:15:09.400 - 03:15:26.800]: So, would you include them in -- as well as Secretary Pompeo as key witnesses that -- that would be able to provide some additional information on this -- on this inquiry? GORDON SONDLAND [03:15:26.800 - 03:15:27.800]: I think they would. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:15:27.800 - 03:15:43.560]: Now, the -- this was not the first time, as you indicated, that Mr. Mulvaney heard about these investigations into Burisma and the 2016 election, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:15:43.560 - 03:16:02.160]: I don't know what Mr. Mulvaney heard or didn't hear. I think there has been a huge amount of exaggeration over my contact with Mr. Mulvaney. It was actually quite limited. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:16:02.160 - 03:16:11.200]: Well, he certainly in -- didn't indicate -- he certainly indicated a familiarity with what you were talking about in this July 19th email, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:16:11.200 - 03:16:31.360]: Right, because I think Mr. Mulvaney was in the May 23rd briefing with President Trump. I don't remember, because there were people sitting behind us that were coming and going when we were sitting in front of President Trump's desk. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:16:31.360 - 03:16:44.440]: Now, you've said that you don't have a recollection of -- of saying -- referencing Mulvaney in the July 10th meeting in Ambassador Bolton's office, is that -- is that right, or -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:16:44.440 - 03:16:46.720]: -- I -- I don't recall. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:16:46.720 - 03:17:14.640]: So, when both Fiona Hill and Colonel Vindman testified that, in response to a question from Ukrainian officials at that July 10th meeting about scheduling a White House visit, that you said, well, I -- I spoke with Mr. Mulvaney and it will be scheduled after they announce these investigations, do you have any reason to dispute that characterization? GORDON SONDLAND [03:17:14.640 - 03:17:18.120]: I don't have any reason to agree or dispute. I just don't remember. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:17:18.120 - 03:17:30.440]: So, if they both remembered it and they both then went and spoke to the NSC legal advisor about it, you would trust that whatever they relayed to the NSC legal advisor would likely be an accurate reflection? GORDON SONDLAND [03:17:30.440 - 03:17:46.000]: Well, again, I -- I trust that they relayed to the NSC legal advisor. I don't -- I don't know whether I said it, and I don't know which conversation. Again, I've -- I've had very, very limited conversations with Mr. Mulvaney. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:17:46.000 - 03:17:55.680]: This email indicates that you spoke to President Zelensky and were relaying what he said to very senior officials, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:17:55.680 - 03:17:58.640]: Which email again? DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:17:58.640 - 03:18:07.760]: Sorry, the July 19th email, where you say I -- the subject is I talked to -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:18:07.760 - 03:18:09.000]: -- Yes -- DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:18:09.000 - 03:18:10.120]: -- Zelensky just now. GORDON SONDLAND [03:18:10.120 - 03:18:10.760]: I've got it. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:18:10.760 - 03:18:22.000]: Was there some sort of assurance that President Zelensky needed to provide about what he would say to President Trump in order just to get the phone call? GORDON SONDLAND [03:18:22.000 - 03:18:53.000]: I think that part was verbal, and then there were a lot of communications going around back and forth with the Ukrainians. And that's when someone, and I don't remember who, came up with the idea of a draft statement so there would be no misunderstanding about what in fact the Ukrainians would say and would be willing to say, that we could rely on and negotiate something on a piece of paper. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:18:53.000 - 03:19:36.840]: So, just a place you in time, we're going to get to that draft statement, which was in August. This is July 19th, before the July 25th call. Do you remember whether there was a need from any of the White House officials or other national security officials for President Zelensky to provide some assurance of what he would say to President Trump both for a phone call, not the meeting but a phone call, was scheduled? GORDON SONDLAND [03:19:36.840 - 03:20:01.040]: There was initially apparently a condition, but that condition was obviously dropped because the phone call took place and there was no such statement made. The phone call took place, as you said, on the 25th of July. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:20:01.040 - 03:20:06.040]: And when you say there was no such statement that took place, what do you mean? GORDON SONDLAND [03:20:06.040 - 03:20:15.400]: Well, the Ukrainians never made their public statement prior to the phone call on 25th of July. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:20:15.400 - 03:20:40.520]: Right. But we're not talking about a public statement. I -- I -- what I was asking is whether President Zelensky needed to relay to you or the other American officials that he would assure President Trump that he would do these investigations in a phone call. GORDON SONDLAND [03:20:40.520 - 03:20:41.120]: Well -- DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:20:41.120 - 03:20:42.280]: -- That is -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:20:42.280 - 03:21:15.600]: -- In my email, I obviously had just spoken with him, and he -- he being Zelensky, and he said that he was prepared to receive the call and he would make those assurances to President Trump on that call. And then presumably, that would then lead to the White House meeting. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:21:15.600 - 03:21:24.480]: And you had been discussing this phone call for quite -- for several weeks now, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:21:24.480 - 03:21:36.000]: Yes, with -- I think with Volker, with Perry, with Giuliani through Volker and Perry. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:21:36.000 - 03:22:01.040]: And then right after you sent this email assuring the others that he will discuss the investigations and will turn over every stone, the Burisma and 2016 election investigations, Mr. Mulvaney responded that he asked to set up the call for the next day, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:22:01.040 - 03:22:04.240]: That's what it says. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:22:04.240 - 03:22:25.280]: Now, let's go to that press statement that you were discussing in -- in August. And you testified, I believe, that you understood that Rudy Giuliani was representing the president's interests with regard to Ukraine, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:22:25.280 - 03:22:27.400]: That's what we all understood. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:22:27.400 - 03:22:31.720]: And when -- you all, who do you mean we all? GORDON SONDLAND [03:22:31.720 - 03:22:39.280]: Secretary Perry, Ambassador Volker, myself. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:22:39.280 - 03:23:03.720]: In August, you and Ambassador Volker were coordinating with Andriy Yermak, the Zelensky aide, about a -- a press statement. And I want to pull up a -- some of the text exchanges that you were referring to which, as you acknowledge, helps you refresh your recollection, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:23:03.720 - 03:23:08.840]: And I think Taylor was involved in those initial discussions as well. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:23:08.840 - 03:23:32.000]: Well, he's not on any of these text messages, so perhaps he was. He -- he does not remember that. But let's go to the first one on August 9th. There's an exchange between Ambassador Volker and you where you are discussing setting up -- we'll try to bring it up in the second, but I'll -- I'll just summarize for you. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:23:32.000 - 03:23:58.360]: You're discussing trying to set up a -- a White House meeting. Here it is. And you say Morrison ready to get dates as soon as Yermak confirms. Mr. Volker -- Ambassador Volker says, excellent. How did you sway him? You said not sure I did. I think POTUS really wants the deliverable. What did you mean there? GORDON SONDLAND [03:23:58.360 - 03:24:01.320]: The commitment to do the investigations. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:24:01.320 - 03:24:07.520]: And how did you know that the president wanted the deliverable? GORDON SONDLAND [03:24:07.520 - 03:24:18.880]: I don't recall. I may have had a conversation with him or I may have heard it from someone else. But I -- I don't recall, again, without all these records. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:24:18.880 - 03:24:33.160]: Going to the next exhibit, Exhibit 10 where or August 10 rather this is between you and Andriy Yermak. What did you say initially? In this exchange? GORDON SONDLAND [03:24:33.160 - 03:24:42.080]: Hello, good -- oh, no, that's Yermak. How was your conversation? DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:24:42.080 - 03:25:10.680]: And Mr. Yermak responds hello, good, my proposal we received date and then we make general statement with discussed things. Once we have a date we will call for a press briefing announcing upcoming visit and outlining vision for the reboot of U.S. Ukraine relationship including among other things Burisma and election meddling and investigations and you respond got it. That was your understanding of what this statement had to say to satisfying Mr. Giuliani, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:25:10.680 - 03:25:13.760]: Yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:25:13.760 - 03:25:18.560]: And then ultimately to satisfy the POTUS deliverable? GORDON SONDLAND [03:25:18.560 - 03:25:19.240]: Yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:25:19.240 - 03:25:26.160]: Now the next day you write an email to Ulrich Brechbuhl and Lisa Kenna. Are you able to -- to see that on your screen? GORDON SONDLAND [03:25:26.160 - 03:25:28.440]: I can see it on the screen, yeah. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:25:28.440 - 03:25:31.320]: What is the subject of the email? GORDON SONDLAND [03:25:31.320 - 03:25:32.360]: Ukraine. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:25:32.360 - 03:25:35.200]: And can you read what you wrote there? GORDON SONDLAND [03:25:35.200 - 03:25:56.880]: Mike, and I am referring to Secretary Pompeo Kurt and I negotiated a statement from Zelensky to be delivered for our review in a day or two. The contents will hopefully make the boss happy enough to authorize an invitation. Zelensky plans to have a big presser on the openness subject including specifics next week. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:25:56.880 - 03:26:08.120]: In -- in your opening statement you said that the specifics roof -- what did the specifics represent? GORDON SONDLAND [03:26:08.120 - 03:26:13.000]: The 2016 and the Burisma. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:26:13.000 - 03:26:18.080]: And when you say the boss who do you mean by that? GORDON SONDLAND [03:26:18.080 - 03:26:19.880]: President Trump. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:26:19.880 - 03:26:23.600]: And the invitation is what? GORDON SONDLAND [03:26:23.600 - 03:26:27.400]: The -- to the White House meeting. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:26:27.400 - 03:26:34.520]: And Lisa Kenna responds Gordon, I will pass to S. And S is Secretary Pompeo? GORDON SONDLAND [03:26:34.520 - 03:26:35.120]: Correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:26:35.120 - 03:27:01.440]: Thank you, Lisa. Now two days later you have a text exchange with Ambassador Volker again and this is at the end of it but the earlier text which we don't have here you may recall includes the press statement, the revised press statement that includes very smart and the 2016 election, do you recall that? GORDON SONDLAND [03:27:01.440 - 03:27:04.960]: Yes if I could see it that would be helpful but yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:27:04.960 - 03:27:17.520]: So that you ultimately remembered that after your conversation with Mr. Giuliani you did pass along a statement to the Ukrainians that included Burisma and the 2016 election, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:27:17.520 - 03:27:27.480]: I think there were statements being passed back and forth between Volker, the Ukrainians and others to try and negotiate acceptable language. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:27:27.480 - 03:27:29.880]: And ultimately the statement was not issued was it? GORDON SONDLAND [03:27:29.880 - 03:27:30.960]: Correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:27:30.960 - 03:27:32.120]: In the White House meeting did not -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:27:32.120 - 03:27:34.080]: Still hasn't occurred. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:27:34.080 - 03:27:52.960]: Still hasn't incurred. But you certainly understood at that time did you not that it was the presidents direction and instruction that a White House meeting with President Zelensky would not occur until President Zelensky announced publicly the investigations that the President wanted, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:27:52.960 - 03:27:54.640]: That is correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:27:54.640 - 03:28:10.680]: And you now know that the investigations the President wanted were an investigation into the Biden's and an investigation into the 2016 election? GORDON SONDLAND [03:28:10.680 - 03:28:14.800]: I know that now, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:28:14.800 - 03:28:38.960]: I'm going to move ahead to August 22 and you wrote an email to Secretary Pompeo, directly to Secretary Pompeo cc'ing Lisa Kenna with the subject of Zelensky and could you please read what you wrote to Secretary Pompeo? GORDON SONDLAND [03:28:38.960 - 03:29:07.640]: Mike should we block time in Warsaw for a short pull aside for POTUS to meet Zelensky? I would ask Zelensky to look him in the eye and tell him that once Ukraine's new justice folks are in place mid-September Zelensky should be able to move forward publicly and with confidence on those issues of importance to POTUS and to the U.S. Hopefully that will break the logjam. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:29:07.640 - 03:29:21.600]: And Secretary Pompeo responds to you three minutes later yes. Now I want to unpack this a little bit. You said that in the middle once Ukraine's new justice folks are in place, what did you mean by that? GORDON SONDLAND [03:29:21.600 - 03:29:41.360]: The new prosecutor that was going to be working for President Zelensky, the old prosecutor I believe his term was up for he was being let go, he was the [Inaudible] prosecutor and Zelensky wanted to wait until his person was in place. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:29:41.360 - 03:30:00.160]: So once that new prosecutor was in place then President Zelensky should be able to move forward publicly and with confidence on those issues of importance to POTUS. What did you mean by those issues of importance to POTUS? GORDON SONDLAND [03:30:00.160 - 03:30:04.120]: Again the 2016 election and Burisma investigation. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:30:04.120 - 03:30:14.520]: Were you aware at this time that Secretary Pompeo had listened in to the July 25 phone call? GORDON SONDLAND [03:30:14.520 - 03:30:17.920]: I was not. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:30:17.920 - 03:30:32.000]: If he had do you believe that he would fully understand what the issues of importance to POTUS related to Ukraine would be? GORDON SONDLAND [03:30:32.000 - 03:30:49.560]: I mean I can't characterize his state of mind. He listened in on the phone call and he concluded what he concluded. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:30:49.560 - 03:30:55.760]: But now that you have read the phone call it's quite clear what the issues of importance to POTUS are? GORDON SONDLAND [03:30:55.760 - 03:30:56.680]: Yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:30:56.680 - 03:30:59.800]: Biden investigation -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:30:59.800 - 03:31:00.960]: Yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:31:00.960 - 03:31:05.600]: -- and the 2016 election investigation, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:31:05.600 - 03:31:07.000]: That is correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:31:07.000 - 03:31:18.560]: Then it says hopefully that will break the logjam. Now by this point you were aware that security assistance had been on hold for about five weeks, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:31:18.560 - 03:31:19.800]: I became aware on 18 July. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:31:19.800 - 03:31:30.040]: And you -- you understood that there was a lot of activity within the State Department and elsewhere to try to get that cold lifted, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:31:30.040 - 03:31:31.000]: That is right. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:31:31.000 - 03:31:39.440]: Just about everybody in the interagency meaning the national security apparatus wanted to list the hold and wanted the a to go to Ukraine? GORDON SONDLAND [03:31:39.440 - 03:31:40.080]: Correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:31:40.080 - 03:31:42.560]: So what did you mean here when you said logjam? GORDON SONDLAND [03:31:42.560 - 03:31:50.760]: Well, as I said to chairmanship I meant inconclusively anything that was holding up moving forward on the meeting and the Ukraine-U.S. relationship. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:31:50.760 - 03:31:53.480]: And what was holding that up? GORDON SONDLAND [03:31:53.480 - 03:32:00.440]: At that point it was the statements about Burisma and the 2016 elections. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:32:00.440 - 03:32:02.880]: But what was being held up? GORDON SONDLAND [03:32:02.880 - 03:32:04.600]: Well, the aid was being held up obviously. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:32:04.600 - 03:32:11.320]: Four days later you said in your opening statement that you sent Rudy Giuliani's contact information to John Bolton. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:32:11.320 - 03:32:12.600]: I did. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:32:12.600 - 03:32:14.560]: Did you know why he asked for that? GORDON SONDLAND [03:32:14.560 - 03:32:16.360]: No idea. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:32:16.360 - 03:32:20.920]: Did you know that he was going to Ukraine the next day? GORDON SONDLAND [03:32:20.920 - 03:32:40.080]: I knew he was about to go to Ukraine. I didn't know exactly when his trip was but I thought it was kind of an odd request given that the White House can pretty much get anyone's phone number they want. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:32:40.080 - 03:32:51.480]: Now in this email to Secretary Pompeo you reference a trip to Warsaw. Ultimately the vice president went on that trip? GORDON SONDLAND [03:32:51.480 - 03:32:53.440]: That is correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:32:53.440 - 03:33:04.400]: And that was the conversation that you talk to about where you testified earlier to that where you said that we really need to get these investigations from Ukraine in order to release the aid in the pre-meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [03:33:04.400 - 03:33:05.240]: That is right. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:33:05.240 - 03:33:08.120]: And Vice President Pence just nodded? GORDON SONDLAND [03:33:08.120 - 03:33:10.360]: A -- he heard what I said. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:33:10.360 - 03:33:12.280]: And didn't respond in any way? GORDON SONDLAND [03:33:12.280 - 03:33:15.640]: I don't recall any substantive response. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:33:15.640 - 03:33:23.960]: Okay. But you -- you never specifically referenced the Biden's or Burisma in that meeting did you? GORDON SONDLAND [03:33:23.960 - 03:33:27.040]: I don't remember ever mentioning the Biden's. I may have mentioned Burisma. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:33:27.040 - 03:33:31.240]: In that meeting you with a group, you were not alone with Vice President Pence? GORDON SONDLAND [03:33:31.240 - 03:33:31.920]: That is -- DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:33:31.920 - 03:33:48.480]: Is that right? And you know that at that bilateral meeting with President Zelensky I believe you testified earlier that Vice President Pence did not mention these investigations at all, right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:33:48.480 - 03:33:49.480]: I don't recall him mentioning the investigations. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:33:49.480 - 03:34:03.000]: So that -- your testimony is just simply in a pre-meeting with a group of Americans before the bilateral meeting you reference the fact that the Ukraine needed to do these investigations in order to lift the aid. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:34:03.000 - 03:34:22.720]: I -- I think I referenced -- I didn't say that Ukraine had to do the investigations. I think I said that we heard from Mr. Giuliani that that was the case. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:34:22.720 - 03:34:25.160]: So that helps inform your presumption, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:34:25.160 - 03:34:25.600]: Correct. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:34:25.600 - 03:34:30.440]: So it wasn't really a presumption. You heard from Mr. Giuliani. GORDON SONDLAND [03:34:30.440 - 03:34:38.920]: Well, I didn't hear from Mr. Giuliani about the aide. I heard about the Burisma in 2016. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:34:38.920 - 03:34:45.760]: And you understood at that point as we discussed 2+2 = 4 that the aide was there as well? GORDON SONDLAND [03:34:45.760 - 03:34:53.480]: That was the problem Mr. Goldman. No one told me directly that the aide was tied to anything. I was presuming it was. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:34:53.480 - 03:35:22.200]: Right. Well I want to go ahead to -- I'm going to go back on September 1 or I'm going to jump actually ahead to September 7, okay? When we discuss those text messages where you said there were multiple convos with President Zelensky and POTUS. Do you recall that? GORDON SONDLAND [03:35:22.200 - 03:35:23.240]: Do you have the email by any chance? DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:35:23.240 - 03:35:28.160]: We could try to pull it up in a second but you don't remember I showed it to you earlier this morning? GORDON SONDLAND [03:35:28.160 - 03:35:30.120]: Yeah, go ahead though with your question. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:35:30.120 - 03:35:36.240]: And you -- you confirm that that likely meant as you said it did that you spoke with President Trump, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:35:36.240 - 03:35:40.600]: Again if my email said I spoke with President Trump presumably I -- I did. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:35:40.600 - 03:35:46.160]: You are relying pretty heavily in your testimony on the texts and emails that you were able to review. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:35:46.160 - 03:35:47.960]: That's right. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:35:47.960 - 03:35:57.000]: So certainly if someone else had contemporaneous texts, emails or notes, you would presume that what they were saying was accurate. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:35:57.000 - 03:36:15.120]: Well, if they had texts or emails, I would. If they had notes, I don't know. Some people's notes are great. Some peoples aren't. I don't know. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:36:15.120 - 03:36:20.760]: But certainly it would be a helpful refresher to anyone's memory? GORDON SONDLAND [03:36:20.760 - 03:36:23.840]: Including my own. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:36:23.840 - 03:37:02.240]: Now you had a conversation on September 7, according to both Ambassador Taylor and Tim Morrison -- with Tim Morrison where you told Mr. Morrison that President Trump told you that he was not asking for a quid pro quo, but that he did insist that President Zelensky go to a microphone and say that he is opening investigations of Biden and 2016 election interference and that President Zelensky should want to do this himself. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:37:02.240 - 03:37:12.200]: You don't have any reason to dispute both Ambassador Taylor's and Mr. Morrison's testimony about that conversation, do you? GORDON SONDLAND [03:37:12.200 - 03:37:14.640]: No. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:37:14.640 - 03:37:44.120]: On September 8 you then had a conversation directly with Ambassador Taylor about this same phone call where Ambassador Taylor said that you confirmed that you spoke to President Trump as he had suggested earlier to you, and that President Trump was adamant that President Zelensky himself, meaning not the prosecutor general, had to, quote, clear things up and do it in public, unquote. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:37:44.120 - 03:37:53.720]: Do you recall -- do you have any reason to think that ambassador Taylor's testimony based on his contemporaneous notes was incorrect? GORDON SONDLAND [03:37:53.720 - 03:38:00.480]: I don't know if I got that from President Trump or I got it from Giuliani. That's the part I'm not clear on. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:38:00.480 - 03:38:18.200]: Well, Ambassador Taylor is quite clear that you said President Trump. Mr. Morrison is also quite clear that you said President Trump. You don't have any reason to dispute their very specific recollections, do you? GORDON SONDLAND [03:38:18.200 - 03:38:28.760]: No, if they have notes and they recall that, I don't have any reason to dispute it. I just personally can't remember where I got it from. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:38:28.760 - 03:38:58.200]: And you also told Ambassador Taylor in that same conversation that if President Zelensky, that -- rather you told President Zelensky and Andriy Yermak that although this was not a quid pro quo as the president had very clearly told you, it was however required for President Zelensky to clear things up in public or there would be a stalemate. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:38:58.200 - 03:39:11.440]: You don't have any reason to dispute Ambassador Taylor's recollection of that conversation you had with President Zelensky, do you? GORDON SONDLAND [03:39:11.440 - 03:39:11.960]: No. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:39:11.960 - 03:39:18.000]: And that you understood the stalemate referenced the aid. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:39:18.000 - 03:39:19.600]: At that point, yes. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:39:19.600 - 03:39:46.680]: Ambassador Taylor also described a comment that you made where you were trying to explain what President Trump's view of this was, and you said that President Trump is a businessman. When a businessman is about to sign a check to someone who owes him something, the businessman asks the person to pay up before signing the check. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:39:46.680 - 03:39:51.920]: Do you recall saying that to Ambassador Taylor? GORDON SONDLAND [03:39:51.920 - 03:39:57.120]: I don't recall it specifically, but I may have. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:39:57.120 - 03:40:02.840]: And Ambassador Volker also said that you did. GORDON SONDLAND [03:40:02.840 - 03:40:03.440]: Okay. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:40:03.440 - 03:40:22.120]: So just to summarize here, by the end of the first week of September before the aid had been released, you had expressed twice to the Ukrainians that you understood that the aid -- that the investigations needed to be publicly announced on CNN in order for the aid to be released. Do you recall that? GORDON SONDLAND [03:40:22.120 - 03:40:35.880]: I didn't say that they had to be announced on CNN. The Ukrainians said to me or to Ambassador Volker, or both of us, that they had planned to do an interview anyway on CNN, and they would use that occasion to mention these items. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:40:35.880 - 03:41:16.760]: And that even though at some point you had calculated 2+2 to equal 4 and therefore you believed that the aid was conditioned on the investigations, that you had a phone call with President Trump, that you relayed to both Tim Morrison and Ambassador Taylor whose accounts of that conversation you do not dispute, where President Trump confirmed that President Zelensky needed to publicly announce the investigations or otherwise the obvious implication of the stalemate would be that the aid would not be released. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:41:16.760 - 03:41:18.200]: Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:41:18.200 - 03:41:35.360]: Again, the implication. I did not hear directly from President Trump that the aid would be held up until the statement was made. I did not hear those words. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:41:35.360 - 03:41:48.320]: But you agree that with whatever Mr. Morrison and Ambassador Taylor testified to about the conversation you had with President Trump. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:41:48.320 - 03:41:55.840]: Remind me again. I don't want to misspeak. DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:41:55.840 - 03:42:01.000]: Well you just said you have no reason to dispute their accounts based on their detailed notes. GORDON SONDLAND [03:42:01.000 - 03:42:24.040]: Were they saying that I told them that President Trump said that the aid would not be released until the statements were made because I said repeatedly I don't recall President Trump ever saying that to me? DANIEL GOLDMAN [03:42:24.040 - 03:42:24.960]: Okay. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:42:24.960 - 03:42:32.520]: I think what they said, if I could just finish this line of questioning -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:42:32.520 - 03:42:33.040]: Yeah, yeah. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:42:33.040 - 03:43:12.200]: -- was that President Trump was adamant that President Zelensky himself had to clear things up, quote, clear things up and do it in public, unquote. So what they related was although President Trump claimed to you there was no quid pro quo, he also made it clear to you in that call that President Zelensky had to, quote, clear things up and do it in public. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:43:12.200 - 03:43:18.960]: You don't have a reason to dispute that's what you [Inaudible] GORDON SONDLAND [03:43:18.960 - 03:43:43.920]: I don't have any reason to dispute the clear things up and do it in public. What I'm trying to be very clear about was President Trump never told me directly that the aid was tied to that statement. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:43:43.920 - 03:44:03.520]: But in that same conversation you had with him about the aid, about the quid pro quo, he told you that President Zelensky had to, quote, clear things up and do it in public, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:44:03.520 - 03:44:15.320]: I did not have a conversation with him about the aid. I had a conversation with him, as referenced in my text, about quid pro quo. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:44:15.320 - 03:44:21.240]: Well, the quid pro quo you were discussing was over the aid, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:44:21.240 - 03:44:45.600]: No, President Trump, when I asked him the open-ended question, as I testified previously, what do you want from Ukraine? His answer was, I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. Tell Zelensky to do the right thing. That's all I got from President Trump. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:44:45.600 - 03:44:58.320]: Did you also get from President Trump, as reflected by Ambassador Taylor, that he said he was adamant that President Zelensky had to, quote, clear things up and do it in public? GORDON SONDLAND [03:44:58.320 - 03:45:03.200]: That part I can agree to, yes. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:45:03.200 - 03:45:08.840]: The time is now with the minority for 20 minutes. UNIDENTIFIED [03:45:08.840 - 03:45:09.840]: 33. ADAM B. SCHIFF [03:45:09.840 - 03:45:12.440]: I'm sorry, 33 minutes. DEVIN NUNES [03:45:12.440 - 03:45:21.600]: 33 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ambassador, you've been in business for a long time. GORDON SONDLAND [03:45:21.600 - 03:45:23.360]: I have. DEVIN NUNES [03:45:23.360 - 03:45:31.760]: So if you want to get to the bottom of something, somebody that's running a department or one of your buildings or something, who do you go to? GORDON SONDLAND [03:45:31.760 - 03:45:32.960]: The boss. DEVIN NUNES [03:45:32.960 - 03:45:35.720]: Manager of whatever company it is? GORDON SONDLAND [03:45:35.720 - 03:45:36.320]: Exactly. DEVIN NUNES [03:45:36.320 - 03:45:36.720]: Right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:45:36.720 - 03:45:37.200]: Correct. DEVIN NUNES [03:45:37.200 - 03:45:47.480]: So if you want to get to the bottom of foreign aid, probably go to the people that are in charge of foreign aid here in this town, wouldn't you? Because you're not in charge of foreign aid. GORDON SONDLAND [03:45:47.480 - 03:45:49.280]: I'm not in charge of foreign aid. DEVIN NUNES [03:45:49.280 - 03:46:16.040]: And you've had to testify that you presume foreign aid was this or that, and you're guessing that this was tied to foreign aid. But there are people in this town who are in charge of the foreign aid. And in fact, I don't think it's very fair to you at all, or to us, or to the American people, you might be surprised that we had that person here in the capitol in a secret deposition in the basement last Saturday. DEVIN NUNES [03:46:16.040 - 03:47:00.560]: That testimony might be pretty important to you before you were here to testify, if you could have read that, your lawyers could have went through that because it may have clarified some more things for you about your recollection about the foreign aid. So you know, we've heard -- earlier we heard about the -- we had the chair looking at the cameras telling American people talking about Watergate, with their Watergate fantasies that they continue to -- I guess they fantasize about this at night, and then they come here and talk about obstruction of justice because they're not giving you documents that you think you should have. DEVIN NUNES [03:47:00.560 - 03:47:29.520]: So now they've laid out their clear Watergate argument for articles of impeachment. So I just have to remind the gentleman -- I know we're not in a court of law because you wrote the rules, the chair here did, but I would think it's obstruction of justice to not give the American people and give the ambassador the right to look at the transcript of the man who was in charge of the foreign aid in this town. DEVIN NUNES [03:47:29.520 - 03:47:49.120]: Now I could get into what he said, but -- and the chair could release what he said. And we're not even allowed to call that witness here today. So let's talk about things that we do know are facts, okay, as best as I think you and I and most people know them. President Trump does not like foreign aid to start with. DEVIN NUNES [03:47:49.120 - 03:47:55.400]: Is that correct, Ambassador? GORDON SONDLAND [03:47:55.400 - 03:47:56.760]: I've heard that, yes. DEVIN NUNES [03:47:56.760 - 03:48:12.000]: And you've testified that watching over the EU you have 28 countries, you have neighboring countries that you work with. One of his biggest complaints is the lack of participation that those countries participate in programs around the world. Isn't that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:48:12.000 - 03:48:12.920]: That's correct. DEVIN NUNES [03:48:12.920 - 03:48:14.760]: Especially NATO -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:48:14.760 - 03:48:15.080]: Yes. DEVIN NUNES [03:48:15.080 - 03:48:38.880]: -- right? That's one of your -- when you start -- when you go down the list of the jobs that -- when you get directions from the White House when you first became Ambassador, probably one of the number one things -- I don't want to put words in your mouth, but on the top of the list was making sure countries pay their fair share, especially with NATO. GORDON SONDLAND [03:48:38.880 - 03:48:45.480]: Yeah, and we have a very capable Ambassador to NATO, so I'm not going to take her lane. DEVIN NUNES [03:48:45.480 - 03:48:48.040]: But it's one of the -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:48:48.040 - 03:48:50.080]: Yes. DEVIN NUNES [03:48:50.080 - 03:48:56.240]: -- you work with those countries? It's one of the issues that you bring up in your meetings, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:48:56.240 - 03:48:57.520]: It is. DEVIN NUNES [03:48:57.520 - 03:49:23.240]: So I know you weren't on the July 25 phone call, but one of the first things that the president of the United States brings up is Germany's lack of participation -- I think he names the president of Germany directly -- that they're not participating in helping out Ukraine who is one of their neighbors. Is that what you read in the transcript? GORDON SONDLAND [03:49:23.240 - 03:49:26.280]: I've heard that, yes. DEVIN NUNES [03:49:26.280 - 03:49:58.160]: So the whole idea that the president, to start out with, he doesn't like foreign aid, he doesn't think countries pay their fair share. That's looking out for the taxpayer. But there's more. And we talked about this in your deposition. We talked about it -- about how we have requirements. The Congress writes requirements into the law that require you and all the diplomats to carry out the foreign policy of this country for the president of the United States. DEVIN NUNES [03:49:58.160 - 03:50:05.880]: Before the president can certify foreign aid and send foreign aid, there has to be certification that there's a -- that there's no corruption. You're aware of that now. GORDON SONDLAND [03:50:05.880 - 03:50:06.800]: I am now, yes. DEVIN NUNES [03:50:06.800 - 03:50:53.560]: So -- so being that -- that you learn about that in your deposition, not looking back at, clearly, the challenges and concerns of the president had with the involvement of -- of height level Ukrainian government officials, including the ambassador here in the United States that attacked him during his presidential campaign, the concerns of leaks that were leaks or just made up stories and conspiracy theories that were spun in the Steele dossier that the Democrats on this committee own, they paid for it, other DNC operatives that were working with the Ukrainian ambassador here -- here in Washington DC to dirty up your boss, the president of the United States. DEVIN NUNES [03:50:53.560 - 03:51:14.880]: We're not going to hear from those witnesses. Just like we're not going to hear from the person we deposed on Saturday. We're not going to hear about what the real reason the person who's in charge of -- of making sure that foreign aid is delivered, were not going to hear about what actually happened with the foreign aid. DEVIN NUNES [03:51:14.880 - 03:51:29.520]: Wouldn't that have made it a lot easier for you to testify instead of guessing and doing little funny math problems up here, two plus two equals four. It's great for all the viewers to hear that. Wouldn't it be easier if you just knew exactly why the foreign aid wasn't given? GORDON SONDLAND [03:51:29.520 - 03:51:34.320]: It would have been easier to testify if I had a totality of the record. DEVIN NUNES [03:51:34.320 - 03:51:45.920]: And would you trust the person who's in charge of cutting the checks for foreign aid, a top career diplomat or the top career official? GORDON SONDLAND [03:51:45.920 - 03:51:46.840]: I'd have no reason not to. DEVIN NUNES [03:51:46.840 - 03:52:01.240]: Okay. Well ambassador, I don't know if we'll get to speak again, if we have some more magical minutes, but I -- I'm done with questions with you. I know the rest of our members have more questions and let me turn to -- I know Mr. Castor has more questions. STEVE CASTOR [03:52:01.240 - 03:52:02.720]: Hello again, Ambassador. GORDON SONDLAND [03:52:02.720 - 03:52:03.120]: Hi. STEVE CASTOR [03:52:03.120 - 03:52:29.840]: We'll try not to use all of this time as a courtesy to you. I just want to go through some distinctions between your -- your opener and your deposition and some other witnesses. In your opening statement today, you said President Trump directed us to talk with Rudy, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:52:29.840 - 03:52:31.640]: Correct. STEVE CASTOR [03:52:31.640 - 03:52:50.920]: But then, you and I had a little bit of a back-and-forth about the president just said talk to Rudy and I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, you took that to mean if we wanted to move forward with these types of things, Rudy was a place to go? GORDON SONDLAND [03:52:50.920 - 03:52:52.200]: Rudy was the guy. STEVE CASTOR [03:52:52.200 - 03:52:59.320]: Okay. But President Trump didn't direct you to talk to Rudy, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:52:59.320 - 03:53:04.280]: It wasn't an order. It was, if you want to work on this, this is the guy you've got to talk to. STEVE CASTOR [03:53:04.280 - 03:53:26.440]: Ambassador Volker in his deposition said, "I didn't take it as an instruction but just as a comment. Talk to Rudy. You know, he knows these things and you've got some bad people around him." I mean, that, referring to the Ukrainian. So I mean, Ambassador Volker has hasn't testified that there's any sort of order or direction to talk to Rudy. GORDON SONDLAND [03:53:26.440 - 03:53:57.400]: I don't know what he testified. It became very clear to all three of us that if we wanted to move the relationship forward, President Trump was not really interested in engaging. He wanted Rudy to handle it and, as I said in my opening statement, Secretary Perry took the lead and made the initial contact with Rudy, and that's when we begin working with him. STEVE CASTOR [03:53:57.400 - 03:54:13.160]: And as to the question of whether Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desire specifically of the president of the United States, in your deposition, you said I don't know. I don't know if this was coming out of Rudy Giuliani irrespective of the president. Correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:54:13.160 - 03:54:22.400]: Again, I'm -- yeah, I'm not going to dispute what I said in my deposition. That's true. Yeah. STEVE CASTOR [03:54:22.400 - 03:54:28.000]: Okay. And we walked through all your communications with Rudy Giuliani, and they're not a lot, right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:54:28.000 - 03:54:28.520]: Correct. STEVE CASTOR [03:54:28.520 - 03:54:55.280]: Ambassador Volker in his deposition on the same question said, "I did not have that impression. I believe Mr. Giuliani was doing his own communications. "And, you know, granted, Mr. Giuliani had business interest in Ukraine, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:54:55.280 - 03:55:02.320]: Now I understand he did. I didn't know that at the time. STEVE CASTOR [03:55:02.320 - 03:55:08.520]: With Messrs. Parnas and Fruman, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [03:55:08.520 - 03:55:10.920]: A lot of new names I learned. STEVE CASTOR [03:55:10.920 - 03:55:14.720]: Okay, and you had never met with those folks? GORDON SONDLAND [03:55:14.720 - 03:55:15.440]: No. STEVE CASTOR [03:55:15.440 - 03:55:33.800]: Okay. And then, in your September 9 communication with the president, during your deposition, that was a striking movement when you walk us through your telephone call with President Trump on September 9 in saying -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:55:33.800 - 03:55:46.480]: -- And by the way, I still cannot find a record of that call because the State Department and the White House cannot locate it, but I'm pretty sure I had the call on that day. STEVE CASTOR [03:55:46.480 - 03:55:52.760]: Whether it was the ninth or the eighth, you had this call. It was extremely memorable, right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:55:52.760 - 03:55:54.160]: It was. STEVE CASTOR [03:55:54.160 - 03:56:19.480]: And you -- you've been very honest, and were not trying to give you a hard time in all the times you don't recall, were just trying to just say that it's a lot of important events that have happened that the committee has asked you about and you've honestly said I don't recall. But the call with President Trump on September 9th or the 8th, you recall it vividly, right? GORDON SONDLAND [03:56:19.480 - 03:56:45.320]: I recall it vividly because it was keyed by the sort of frantic emails from Ambassador Taylor. I had, again, prior to that call had all kinds of theories as to why things weren't moving, why there was no White House meeting, why there was no aid, why there was no this, why there was no that, and I was getting tired of going around in circles, frankly. GORDON SONDLAND [03:56:45.320 - 03:56:54.920]: So I made the call and I asked, as I said, the open ended question, what do you want from Ukraine? And that's when I got the answer. STEVE CASTOR [03:56:54.920 - 03:56:58.160]: And he was -- he was unequivocal. Nothing. GORDON SONDLAND [03:56:58.160 - 03:57:00.720]: What I said in the text is what I heard. STEVE CASTOR [03:57:00.720 - 03:57:06.120]: I'm curious, was that vignette in your opener today? GORDON SONDLAND [03:57:06.120 - 03:57:07.960]: I don't think so. STEVE CASTOR [03:57:07.960 - 03:57:13.040]: How come? That's so memorable. It's so striking. GORDON SONDLAND [03:57:13.040 - 03:57:22.040]: I don't know. It was in my previous testimony and I assumed if people had questions, they would bring it up. STEVE CASTOR [03:57:22.040 - 03:57:43.520]: Okay, I mean, this is an example you know, a lot of witnesses during the course of this investigation have dealt with ambiguities in different ways and some have resolved them in the light least favorable to the president over and over again. This is an exculpatory fact shedding some light on the president's state of mind about the situation about the -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:57:43.520 - 03:57:48.120]: -- And I'm happy to discuss it. STEVE CASTOR [03:57:48.120 - 03:57:50.600]: So I'm just wondering why you didn't mention it in your opener. GORDON SONDLAND [03:57:50.600 - 03:58:03.560]: There were so many things I wanted to include in my opening and my opening was already I think 45 minutes or something. It would've been an hour and a half. There were a lot of things I'd like to have mentioned. STEVE CASTOR [03:58:03.560 - 03:58:12.640]: But you only had a couple of conversations with the president. I mean, we're trying to evaluate whether the impeaching the president -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:58:12.640 - 03:58:16.240]: -- It was not -- it was not purposeful, trust me. STEVE CASTOR [03:58:16.240 - 03:58:35.520]: Okay. Talking about striking conversations, Mr. Holmes when he came here last Friday in the basement, he -- he, I'll tell you, he thought your conversation that you had with the president was, like, the most memorable thing he's ever experienced. He -- GORDON SONDLAND [03:58:35.520 - 03:58:38.520]: -- How many conversations he had with the president? STEVE CASTOR [03:58:38.520 - 03:58:48.520]: I -- he probably hasn't had any. But he was energized, enthusiastic about telling us about this conversation. GORDON SONDLAND [03:58:48.520 - 03:58:55.920]: So not only did I buy him lunch, but I also provided entertainment? STEVE CASTOR [03:58:55.920 - 03:59:34.080]: And he -- I mean, he -- he conferred with us that he -- he regaled anyone that he came across with this story, and that's, I guess, a discussion for Thursday. But other than the colorful language that he was definitely moved by -- by the color. But he was unequivocal that you brought up the Bidens in the post call discussion and he said something to the effect of the president is only interested in big things and Mr. -- Mr. Holmes said that oh, there's a lot of big things going on in the Ukraine, like there are. STEVE CASTOR [03:59:34.080 - 04:00:14.800]: There's a war. Ukraine is under attack and up in the east by Russia. And he -- he puts words in your mouth to the effect of no, the president only cares about investigations like Rudy is pitching about the Bidens. And what's important about this, this is the day after the 7/25 call and what's reported by Mr. Holmes and you, to the extent you confirmed it is isn't anything different than it happened on the 7/25 call, agreed, from the president's standpoint? GORDON SONDLAND [04:00:14.800 - 04:00:32.520]: Well, with 20/20 hindsight, now that we've had that transcript of the -- of the call, the Bidens were clearly mentioned on the call, but I don't -- I wasn't making the connection with the Bidens. STEVE CASTOR [04:00:32.520 - 04:00:43.560]: Right, but -- but with regard to the president, I mean, it was just mentioning investigations. GORDON SONDLAND [04:00:43.560 - 04:00:48.680]: That's all he said on the phone was investigations, I think. STEVE CASTOR [04:00:48.680 - 04:01:08.120]: But you told us time and again you never realized the Bidens were part of any of this, the Burisma, you talked about a continuum, and you never came to understand that until maybe as late as September 25, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:01:08.120 - 04:01:16.720]: I don't know the exact date, but it was pretty late. STEVE CASTOR [04:01:16.720 - 04:01:33.040]: Okay. And Ambassador Volker said the Bidens never came up after his one breakfast meeting with -- with Mayor Giuliani where he -- he testified that he -- he tried to disabuse the mayor of anything relating to the Bidens. GORDON SONDLAND [04:01:33.040 - 04:01:47.920]: And I think Secretary Perry publicly stated that he never heard Biden either until the end. STEVE CASTOR [04:01:47.920 - 04:02:05.440]: Okay. So when you testify here today that you have no recollection of mentioning the Bidens to Mr. Holmes, that's not just a recollection, that's based on your state of mind at that point in time and your state of mind up to, you know, September 25, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:02:05.440 - 04:02:10.680]: I wasn't into investigating the Bidens. STEVE CASTOR [04:02:10.680 - 04:02:14.800]: So it's very surprising to you that he would mention that, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:02:14.800 - 04:02:16.760]: It was very surprising to me. STEVE CASTOR [04:02:16.760 - 04:02:33.920]: I want to go back to a couple of things in your statement this July 26 meeting with President Zelensky early -- earlier in the day from this lunch time event we have been talking about during the course of the meeting with President Zelensky did -- did any of the parties discuss what -- what came up on the telephone call? GORDON SONDLAND [04:02:33.920 - 04:02:35.640]: I don't believe so. STEVE CASTOR [04:02:35.640 - 04:02:44.440]: Okay. So President Zelensky didn't express any concerns about the content of the call, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:02:44.440 - 04:02:58.200]: I mean all I heard about that call was that it was a good call. It was friendly, everyone was happy you know I was delighted to hear that so that we could now move to the next phase which was the meeting. STEVE CASTOR [04:02:58.200 - 04:03:07.280]: So you -- you can tell us with certainty that nobody talked about demands in that meeting, of fulfilling the presidents demands? GORDON SONDLAND [04:03:07.280 - 04:03:43.280]: I don't remember exactly again this is -- this is a great example Mr. Castor of where I would love to have seen the notes from the meeting. I didn't take any notes but I know there were notes taken. But I don't remember any heated conversation in the meeting. I remember it being a really, really friendly meeting in that is why I said what I did to the presidents the next day which was you know Zelensky will do whatever you want, he is very happy. STEVE CASTOR [04:03:43.280 - 04:03:54.920]: And you -- you don't remember in the discussion of the -- by President Zelensky of lamenting have he had to navigate this -- this difficult situation, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:03:54.920 - 04:04:05.600]: I don't -- I don't know -- I know that that was in the whistleblower complaint, something about navigating something. I [Inaudible] -- STEVE CASTOR [04:04:05.600 - 04:04:07.400]: It was. GORDON SONDLAND [04:04:07.400 - 04:04:10.480]: I didn't remember anything like that. STEVE CASTOR [04:04:10.480 - 04:04:13.160]: Okay. And I want to get back to your -- DEVIN NUNES [04:04:13.160 - 04:04:15.000]: Gentleman yield just a second? STEVE CASTOR [04:04:15.000 - 04:04:15.840]: Of course. DEVIN NUNES [04:04:15.840 - 04:05:08.760]: Which would be another helpful thing also ambassador is if we actually have heard from the whistleblower and we had testimony of the whistleblower then you wouldn't have to be up here speculating as much and guessing because you would have the source that went have been interviewed, we have his complaint, we could match it up with your testimony along with the people from OMB that would have made it very easy for you to testify so you wouldn't have to just try to remember all of this stuff and chase conspiracy theories around that the Democrats have continued to lay out for the next six weeks moving from quid pro quo to extortion to bribery to where are we at today obstruction of justice and now back to quid pro quo. DEVIN NUNES [04:05:08.760 - 04:05:26.520]: We wouldn't have had to do all of that if the whistleblower would have testified. You wouldn't have to speculate about what the whistleblower only had in his or her complaint that nobody seems to know. I yield back to Mr. Castor. STEVE CASTOR [04:05:26.520 - 04:06:00.320]: Think you Mr. Nunes. I want to turn to your -- a couple of times in your -- your -- your opener you said everyone was in the loop and I just want to you know these televised proceedings sometimes we lose track of things and you know every -- everyone was not in the loop with your speculation or your guess that in the absence of any credible explanation for the suspension of aid I later came to believe that the presumption of security aid would not occur without public statement from the Ukraine. STEVE CASTOR [04:06:00.320 - 04:06:04.720]: Everyone wasn't in the loop with that, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:06:04.720 - 04:06:08.840]: Well, the Secretary was because that is why I sent my email. STEVE CASTOR [04:06:08.840 - 04:06:18.200]: But your emails -- let's look at your emails. There is two emails that you sent to the Secretary, right? That are here? GORDON SONDLAND [04:06:18.200 - 04:06:20.000]: August 22. STEVE CASTOR [04:06:20.000 - 04:06:20.960]: And Augustine 11. GORDON SONDLAND [04:06:20.960 - 04:06:23.480]: August 11. STEVE CASTOR [04:06:23.480 - 04:06:49.560]: So the August 11 email we went through this before I am sorry to go through it again. You said these Secretary Kurt and I negotiated a statement from Z to be delivered for our review in a day or two. The contents will hopefully make the boss happy enough to authorize an invitation. Z plans to have a big presser on the openness subject next week. STEVE CASTOR [04:06:49.560 - 04:06:57.320]: A couple of things here. This is only relating to the White House meeting, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:06:57.320 - 04:06:59.920]: Yes, I believe so. STEVE CASTOR [04:06:59.920 - 04:07:08.240]: And this is only -- this is just investigations and generally making a public statement of openness generally, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:07:08.240 - 04:07:22.880]: Well, I think by Augustine 11 Mr. Castor I think we were talking about 2016 and Burisma. The investigations generally was really early in the -- STEVE CASTOR [04:07:22.880 - 04:07:28.000]: Okay. But do we know that Secretary Pompeo knows that? GORDON SONDLAND [04:07:28.000 - 04:07:31.000]: I think so. I think -- STEVE CASTOR [04:07:31.000 - 04:07:31.320]: Why? GORDON SONDLAND [04:07:31.320 - 04:07:44.400]: Well, only because I think ambassador or I'm sorry counselor Brechbuhl was briefed -- STEVE CASTOR [04:07:44.400 - 04:07:46.520]: Okay. GORDON SONDLAND [04:07:46.520 - 04:07:48.240]: -- on all of these things and -- STEVE CASTOR [04:07:48.240 - 04:07:50.680]: Mike who, you? GORDON SONDLAND [04:07:50.680 - 04:07:55.680]: By I believe Ambassador Volker, by myself, various [Inaudible]. STEVE CASTOR [04:07:55.680 - 04:08:00.000]: That is not what he testified to. I mean did you -- did you -- GORDON SONDLAND [04:08:00.000 - 04:08:05.800]: Ambassador or counselor Brechbuhl testified? I didn't know he had testified. STEVE CASTOR [04:08:05.800 - 04:08:08.200]: No, no. Ambassador Volker. GORDON SONDLAND [04:08:08.200 - 04:08:09.560]: Oh, okay. STEVE CASTOR [04:08:09.560 - 04:08:26.640]: He didn't testify that he briefed Mr. Brechbuhl. I mean this email to the Secretary is -- is talking about this statement which by the way I mean you said current and I negotiated a statement and the statement never went -- GORDON SONDLAND [04:08:26.640 - 04:08:27.560]: Didn't go anywhere. STEVE CASTOR [04:08:27.560 - 04:08:40.960]: Ambassador Volker said it wasn't a good idea, Mr. Yermak said it wasn't a good idea. And what -- what you are writing to the Secretary here is just a -- you know it relates to a generic openness subject, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:08:40.960 - 04:08:54.560]: Yeah, but I think the Secretary though was on the July 25 call which obviously I wasn't on and I didn't know about. STEVE CASTOR [04:08:54.560 - 04:09:10.280]: But you use this email suggested that everyone was in the loop that like security Secretary assistance was tied to some sort of act by the Ukrainians. GORDON SONDLAND [04:09:10.280 - 04:09:26.960]: No, no, I don't think I said that -- I don't think I said that the assistance was involved here. I think I [Inaudible]. STEVE CASTOR [04:09:26.960 - 04:09:30.880]: What was everyone in the loop about then? GORDON SONDLAND [04:09:30.880 - 04:09:47.200]: Well, these Secretary was in the loop that we had negotiated a statement. I am fairly comfortable that the Secretary knows where the statement was at that point in other words, the 2016 and Burisma. STEVE CASTOR [04:09:47.200 - 04:09:47.680]: Okay. GORDON SONDLAND [04:09:47.680 - 04:09:53.960]: And Lisa past that along to him and kept him informed. STEVE CASTOR [04:09:53.960 - 04:10:06.280]: Okay. So we can agree that at this point in time the Secretary wasn't in the loop that there was a conditionality on the security Secretary assistance? GORDON SONDLAND [04:10:06.280 - 04:10:13.280]: Hold on a second. Are you asking about July 19 exhibit four? STEVE CASTOR [04:10:13.280 - 04:10:16.360]: I was asking about your email to these Secretary on August 11. GORDON SONDLAND [04:10:16.360 - 04:10:40.800]: Okay. There's -- well, on -- on July 19 which these Secretary was on I talked about fully transparent investigation and turn over every stone and the Secretary was on that. STEVE CASTOR [04:10:40.800 - 04:10:57.320]: Okay. But you testified at your deposition that on July 19 in this continuum you talk to about at that point in the continuum it was just a generic investigation, was sent to anything involving -- GORDON SONDLAND [04:10:57.320 - 04:11:36.880]: I think it went to again I'm not trying to put words [Inaudible]. I think it went from the original generic from you know May 23 when we left the Oval Office we are talking about corruption and oligarchs until Mr. Giuliani started to become the involved and then it transitioned into the Burisma -- STEVE CASTOR [04:11:36.880 - 04:11:44.800]: But you haven't even talked to Giuliani by that time. This is July 19. UNIDENTIFIED [04:11:44.800 - 04:11:48.600]: Mr. Castor with all respect [Inaudible]. STEVE CASTOR [04:11:48.600 - 04:11:50.640]: Sorry. Use the mic. UNIDENTIFIED [04:11:50.640 - 04:11:52.000]: Will you allow him to finish his answer? STEVE CASTOR [04:11:52.000 - 04:11:53.680]: Of course. I apologize. GORDON SONDLAND [04:11:53.680 - 04:12:08.160]: We were communicating with Mr. Giuliani through Secretary Perry and through Ambassador Volker. I wasn't talking to Mr. Giuliani directly until after August 1. STEVE CASTOR [04:12:08.160 - 04:12:15.160]: But as of July 19 weren't we still on the generic part of the [Inaudible]? GORDON SONDLAND [04:12:15.160 - 04:12:22.720]: I don't know. I believe we were -- I believe by that time we were talking about Burisma and 2016 to be -- to be candid. STEVE CASTOR [04:12:22.720 - 04:12:24.880]: But -- but not Biden? GORDON SONDLAND [04:12:24.880 - 04:12:27.880]: No, no, not Biden. No. STEVE CASTOR [04:12:27.880 - 04:12:29.800]: Turning to your email of August 11 -- GORDON SONDLAND [04:12:29.800 - 04:12:30.720]: Yeah, got it. STEVE CASTOR [04:12:30.720 - 04:12:33.920]: I'm sorry we -- we just dealt with that, August 22. GORDON SONDLAND [04:12:33.920 - 04:12:35.160]: 22? STEVE CASTOR [04:12:35.160 - 04:12:38.480]: Yes, it's page 23 of your opener. GORDON SONDLAND [04:12:38.480 - 04:12:40.640]: Yeah, I have got it. STEVE CASTOR [04:12:40.640 - 04:12:47.760]: And this is where you were requesting a pull aside for the President and this is when the President -- GORDON SONDLAND [04:12:47.760 - 04:12:50.160]: He was still going to go. STEVE CASTOR [04:12:50.160 - 04:12:52.680]: He was going to go, it was before the hurricane. GORDON SONDLAND [04:12:52.680 - 04:12:52.960]: Right. STEVE CASTOR [04:12:52.960 - 04:13:14.200]: Bump that office schedule. I would ask Zelensky to look him in the eye and tell him that once Ukraine's new justice folks are in place Zelensky should be able to move forward publicly and with confidence on those issues of importance to the President and the United States. Hopefully that will break the logjam. STEVE CASTOR [04:13:14.200 - 04:13:21.800]: And at this point in time the issues of importance to the President of the United States were what? GORDON SONDLAND [04:13:21.800 - 04:13:23.720]: To investigations. STEVE CASTOR [04:13:23.720 - 04:13:29.560]: But nothing to do with -- with Vice President Biden, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:13:29.560 - 04:13:33.840]: Again I didn't make the connection there. STEVE CASTOR [04:13:33.840 - 04:13:49.800]: Okay. I want to just pivot briefly to the presidents concerns about foreign assistance. Undersecretary Hale who will be with us later today testified that during this relevant time frame there was a -- a real focus to re-examine all federal aid programs. Are you aware of that interest of the President? GORDON SONDLAND [04:13:49.800 - 04:14:00.120]: I am generally aware of the presidents skepticism toward foreign aid and you know conditioning foreign aid on certain things. I am generally aware of that, yes. STEVE CASTOR [04:14:00.120 - 04:14:32.200]: And Ambassador Hale testified and his testimony has been public. Almost a zero-based concept that each assistance program and each country that receives the program be evaluated. The program made sense that we avoid nation building and that we now provide assistance to countries that are lost to us in terms of policy whether it's because corruption or you know another reason. STEVE CASTOR [04:14:32.200 - 04:14:35.600]: Is that something you were aware of at the time? GORDON SONDLAND [04:14:35.600 - 04:14:38.360]: Generally, yes. STEVE CASTOR [04:14:38.360 - 04:14:48.760]: Okay. And you are certainly aware that the President was concerned about the European allies contributions to the region? GORDON SONDLAND [04:14:48.760 - 04:14:50.560]: Exactly why I was involved. STEVE CASTOR [04:14:50.560 - 04:14:59.040]: Okay. So you know as we get down to September 8 -- 11 -- right before you are advocating that the pause be lifted, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:14:59.040 - 04:15:04.400]: I didn't think -- I didn't think the pause should have ever been put into place. STEVE CASTOR [04:15:04.400 - 04:15:39.680]: But as we get down to September 11 and you are talking to Senator Johnson and so forth you -- you don't know with certainty that the genuine reason the President was implementing the pause wasn't because of his -- his concerns about the allies or his concern about foreign assistance generally or that he wasn't just trying to hold the aid as long as he could to see what he could -- you know what type of information he could get about those two subjects? GORDON SONDLAND [04:15:39.680 - 04:15:40.920]: Fair enough. STEVE CASTOR [04:15:40.920 - 04:15:47.720]: Okay. I am really trying to finish up be for my -- so I can yield some time back. Do we have anything else Mr. -- DEVIN NUNES [04:15:47.720 - 04:15:48.680]: I have nothing else. STEVE CASTOR [04:15:48.680 - 04:15:50.600]: Thank you. Yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:15:50.600 - 04:15:53.920]: The gentleman yields back. DEVIN NUNES [04:15:53.920 - 04:15:56.120]: You'll back the balance of our time. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:15:56.120 - 04:16:18.160]: Let's take a 30 minute recess to allow Esther Sondland -- Ambassador Sondland to get a bite to eat. I think the members of the committee might like to get a bite to eat and then we will resume with the member rounds of questioning, five minutes. If we could allow the witnesses to have the opportunity to leave the room first. UNIDENTIFIED [04:16:18.160 - 04:16:20.600]: Mr. Chairman? ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:16:20.600 - 04:16:22.120]: Yes, counselor? UNIDENTIFIED [04:16:22.120 - 04:16:48.360]: Ambassador Sondland have intended to fly back to Brussels to resume his duties at the end of the day and so it -- it would be a great convenience to us if we could have a shorter break now and resume with the members questions and try and wrap up in time that he might be able to make his flight. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:16:48.360 - 04:17:10.160]: I appreciate that counsel. We all have a busy schedule these days. The member round of questions should take I think slightly less than two hours so I think you should be good depending on the time of your flight but we will endeavor to make the break as short as possible. If you would like to excuse yourself from the room before the rest of the crowd. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:17:10.160 - 04:17:13.400]: We stand in recess. NOTE [04:17:13.400 - 04:17:18.080]: [A recess is called.] ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:17:18.080 - 04:18:02.800]: The Committee will come to order. We'll now proceed to the five-minute member questioning. First, I wanted to -- recognize myself for five minutes. First, I wanted to clarify something for the record. With respect to the witness who testified on Saturday, that is Mr. Sandy. He is a career official with the Office of Management and Budget. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:18:02.800 - 04:18:43.960]: He is, today, reviewing his transcript, an opportunity we give all the witnesses before their transcript is released, to make sure that it's accurate and correct. As his deposition was only taken on Saturday, this was the soonest we could arrange that. We did inform the minority yesterday that if they wished to use any of the questioning from Mr. Sandy's deposition they could do so and we would happily take whatever excerpts they needed even prior to the witness having the chance to go through it. They chose not to take advantage of that opportunity. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:18:43.960 - 04:19:07.760]: But I would make this far more significant point, which is he is not the top official at the Office of Management and Budget responsible for releasing foreign assistance. Those individuals are named Vought and Duffey. And both of those political appointees have been subpoenaed to testify, and both of those political appointees have refused. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:19:07.760 - 04:19:31.760]: In fact, as the deposition will make clear when the transcript is released at a certain point Mr. Sandy was taken out of at least one significant part of the process. But that transcript will be made available as soon as he finishes the review, and we can redact any personal information from it. I want to ask just a few questions, and our staff, because the expanded round had time to get through much of what I wanted to ask you, Ambassador. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:19:31.760 - 04:19:48.840]: But with respect to the statement, you are going back, and I mean by you and others, Ambassador Volker and others, were going back and forth with the Ukrainians to figure out what statement they would have to make to get the meeting, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:19:48.840 - 04:19:49.320]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:19:49.320 - 04:19:55.000]: And they understood they were going to make this statement publicly in order to get the meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [04:19:55.000 - 04:20:05.080]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:20:05.080 - 04:20:19.920]: Similarly, you testified that pretty much everyone could put two and two together and make four and understood that the military assistance was also conditioned on the public announcement of these two investigations, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:20:19.920 - 04:20:22.320]: That was my presumption, yeah. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:20:22.320 - 04:20:26.360]: You put two and two together and got four. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:20:26.360 - 04:20:26.720]: Yes. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:20:26.720 - 04:20:54.680]: Now you're capable of putting two and two together, and so are the Ukrainians. They could put two and two together, as well. They understood there was a hold on security assistance. There is testimony that they understood that in July or August, but it was without a doubt understood when it was made public in the newspaper. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:20:54.680 - 04:20:58.280]: They understood that the security assistance was being held up, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:20:58.280 - 04:21:02.960]: I don't know when they understood it, but presumably they did. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:21:02.960 - 04:21:08.400]: Well, certainly once it was public they understood the security assistance was withheld, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:21:08.400 - 04:21:10.400]: Once it was public, I assume so, yes. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:21:10.400 - 04:21:18.400]: And, indeed, that was one of the issues that was brought up in that meeting between Zelensky and Pence in Warsaw? GORDON SONDLAND [04:21:18.400 - 04:21:39.680]: I think as I testified previously, Chairman, I think Zelensky, if I recall, asked the question more open-ended, like when do we get our money? ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:21:39.680 - 04:22:13.040]: Well, okay. So they understood they didn't have the money yet. It had been approved by Congress. There was a hold on it. You couldn't give them any explanation. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:22:13.040 - 04:22:28.160]: I couldn't. That's right. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:22:28.160 - 04:22:33.600]: They asked. You couldn't tell them why it was being withheld, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:22:33.600 - 04:22:33.600]: I could not. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:22:33.600 - 04:22:33.640]: And if they couldn't put two and two together, you put two and two together for them because you told them in Warsaw they were going to need to make that public statement, likely to get that aid released. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:22:33.640 - 04:22:33.640]: I said I presume that might have to be done in order to get the aid released. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:22:33.640 - 04:23:18.280]: Because we've had a lot of -- a lot of argumentation here, well, the Ukrainians didn't know the aid was withheld. But the Ukrainians found out, and then it was made abundantly clear if they hadn't put two and two together themselves, that if they wanted that aid they were going to have to make these statements, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:23:18.280 - 04:23:22.360]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:23:22.360 - 04:23:22.920]: Mr. Nunes. DEVIN NUNES [04:23:22.920 - 04:23:41.640]: I yield to Mr. Ratcliffe JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:23:41.640 - 04:24:01.880]: Ambassador Sondland, I'm going to try and quickly move to summarize all of your direct communications with President Trump as it relates to this inquiry, and of course you can correct me if I get it wrong. On May 23 you had a group meeting that included what you called a vanilla request about ending corruption involving Ukrainian oligarchs, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:24:01.880 - 04:25:00.120]: Correct. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:25:00.120 - 04:25:46.680]: On July 25, you called President Trump to say you were on your way to Ukraine, but nothing of substance occurred on the call, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:25:46.680 - 04:25:48.160]: Correct. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:25:48.160 - 04:26:29.400]: On July 26 you had a five-minute call at a restaurant that you didn't originally remember because it, according to your statement this morning, quote, did not strike me as significant at the time, end quote, but once refreshed, recalled that the primary purpose was a rapper named A$AP Rocky, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:26:29.400 - 04:26:29.400]: Correct. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:26:29.400 - 04:26:30.440]: And on September 9, and most importantly reading from your deposition, you called President Trump to ask him what do you want from Ukraine. He responded, I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want Zelensky to do the right thing. I want him to do what he ran on. And what he ran on was fighting corruption, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:26:30.440 - 04:26:30.520]: Correct. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:26:30.520 - 04:27:25.160]: And then lastly, on October 2 in a random in-person meeting that you had at an event for the Finnish president, you ran into President Trump and advised him that you had been called to testify before Congress, and he said to you, good; go tell the truth? GORDON SONDLAND [04:27:25.160 - 04:27:33.200]: That's correct. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:27:33.200 - 04:27:35.160]: All right, and that is the entirety of your recollection of your direct communication with the President Trump about these matters? GORDON SONDLAND [04:27:35.160 - 04:27:53.120]: I may have had another call or meeting or two. Again, I wish, Mr. Ratcliffe, I had the record. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:27:53.120 - 04:27:55.160]: I understand. But this is what you recall? GORDON SONDLAND [04:27:55.160 - 04:27:55.160]: That's what I recall. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:27:55.160 - 04:28:19.360]: So stop me if there is anything sinister or nefarious in any of this. A vanilla request about corruption, a call to say I'm on my way to Ukraine, a five-minute call you didn't remember as significant, but its primary purpose was to discuss a rapper, a call that you made where the president said I want nothing, I want no quid pro quo, I want Zelensky to do the right thing, I want him to do what he ran on, and him telling you to go tell Congress the truth. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:28:19.360 - 04:28:19.360]: Anything sinister or nefarious about any of that? GORDON SONDLAND [04:28:19.360 - 04:28:19.360]: Not the way you present it. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:28:19.360 - 04:28:19.360]: Okay, and that is the truth as you've presented it, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:28:19.360 - 04:28:19.360]: Correct. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:28:19.360 - 04:28:19.360]: All right. Why that's important, Ambassador Sondland, is because none of that is hearsay. None of that is speculation. None of that is opinion. That is direct evidence. And ultimately, that is what, if this proceeds to the Senate, they're going to care about. Unlike this proceeding, which has been based on largely speculation, and presumption and opinion, this is direct testimony and direct evidence. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:28:19.360 - 04:28:19.360]: And to that point, none of that included evidence about the Bidens, and none of that included evidence about military assistance because President Trump never mentioned either of those to you, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:28:19.360 - 04:28:19.360]: That's correct. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:28:19.360 - 04:28:21.840]: All right. So going back to the July 26 call, because it's going to be a spectacle tomorrow, you didn't remember it because it didn't strike you as significant at the time. Is it fair to say that if the president of the United States was asking you to do or say something improper on -- or unlawful, that would have been significant to you? GORDON SONDLAND [04:28:21.840 - 04:28:21.840]: Yes. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:28:21.840 - 04:28:29.800]: All right, and if that call was a part of bribery or extortion scheme that you were part of as Democrats have alleged, you'd remember that as significant, wouldn't you? GORDON SONDLAND [04:28:29.800 - 04:28:29.800]: I was not a part, and I would have remembered. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:28:29.800 - 04:28:29.800]: I understand that, and I agree with you. Let's turn to the quid pro quo because it's been reported in the papers that this was blockbuster testimony today about quid pro quo and new evidence. To be fair to you, Ambassador Sondland, according to your statement today, as you say on page 14, as you testified previously, this was your opinion that there was a quid pro quo, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:28:29.800 - 04:28:31.640]: The 2016 Burisma and the -- excuse me the 2016 election and Burisma in return for the White House meeting. That's correct. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:28:31.640 - 04:30:23.040]: So you've shared that before. To that point, to be clear again, on the part of it that relates to military assistance, though, you don't have any direct evidence from President Trump about that part of it. That -- that's your two plus two part of the equation, right, the presumption? GORDON SONDLAND [04:30:23.040 - 04:30:23.040]: Correct. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:30:23.040 - 04:30:23.080]: All right. And you understand also that others disagree. Yesterday we heard from Mr. Morrison, Ambassador Volker. They testified that they didn't see a quid pro quo. Do you understand that? GORDON SONDLAND [04:30:23.080 - 04:30:31.040]: I understand that that's what they said. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:30:31.040 - 04:31:12.280]: Okay, that reasonable people could look at all of this and come to different conclusions, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:31:12.280 - 04:31:52.120]: Correct. JOHN RATCLIFFE [04:31:52.120 - 04:31:52.600]: I yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:31:52.600 - 04:31:53.120]: Mr. Himes. JIM HIMES [04:31:53.120 - 04:32:42.880]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ambassador, thank you for testifying. Ambassador, a couple things jumped out at me in your testimony. In your opening statement you say Mr. Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing investigations into the 2016 election, DNC server and Burisma. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the United States, and we knew that these investigations were important to the president. JIM HIMES [04:32:42.880 - 04:32:42.880]: That last sentence is interesting. No conditionality, no modifiers. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the United States. Mr. Giuliani communicates in colorful and memorable terms. What did Mr. Giuliani say to you that caused you to say that he is expressing the desires of the president of the United States? GORDON SONDLAND [04:32:42.880 - 04:32:42.880]: Mr. Himes, when that was originally communicated that was before I was in touch with Mr. Giuliani directly, so this all came through Mr. Volker and JIM HIMES [04:32:42.880 - 04:32:42.880]: -- So Mr. Volker told you that he was expressing the desires of the presidents of the United States? GORDON SONDLAND [04:32:42.880 - 04:32:42.880]: Correct. JIM HIMES [04:32:42.880 - 04:32:42.880]: And subsequently when you saw the July -- the call -- the transcript of the July 25 conversation with President Zelensky you put it all together and yeah, this is the desire of the President of the United States? GORDON SONDLAND [04:32:42.880 - 04:32:42.880]: After I saw the July 25 readout. JIM HIMES [04:32:42.880 - 04:32:42.880]: Right, okay. The other thing that is interesting here you -- the theme of your testimony today is that everybody knew and signed off which is a little different from what we have heard, right? We have heard this from others saying that your effort out there was irregular, it was shadow foreign policy, characterized as a drug deal in by the way that was not a democratic characterization despite what Mr. Nunes says -- as that of course was the national security advisor to the United States characterizing it as a drug deal. JIM HIMES [04:32:42.880 - 04:32:49.200]: What confuses me is that you have said and testified and it is in here that the Secretary of State was not only aware but that he applauded you good work, keep banging away. The Secretary of State, if this had been a regular or drug deal or a shadow foreign policy he would have been the one to put an end to it and yet he did not, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:32:49.200 - 04:33:56.360]: Well, the Secretary of State I think was taking into account the totality of what I had been working on you know globally and saying you are doing a great job including this. JIM HIMES [04:33:56.360 - 04:33:56.360]: Right, okay. So he was aware of what you were doing and you are doing a great job includes this? GORDON SONDLAND [04:33:56.360 - 04:33:56.360]: Yes. JIM HIMES [04:33:56.360 - 04:33:56.360]: So in some sense he was validating it rather than saying this was irregular or shadow or -- or a drug deal? GORDON SONDLAND [04:33:56.360 - 04:33:56.360]: We never thought it was irregular, we thought it was in the center lane. JIM HIMES [04:33:56.360 - 04:33:56.360]: And why do you think the Secretary of State thought that? GORDON SONDLAND [04:33:56.360 - 04:33:56.360]: Why did he think -- JIM HIMES [04:33:56.360 - 04:33:56.360]: Why did he think that this was a worthy thing to do when so many senior people including the national security advisor thought it was a drug deal? GORDON SONDLAND [04:33:56.360 - 04:33:56.360]: I don't know, you would have to ask him. JIM HIMES [04:33:56.360 - 04:33:56.360]: Okay. To your knowledge did he have communications with the President about this? GORDON SONDLAND [04:33:56.360 - 04:33:56.360]: I have no knowledge of his communications with the President. JIM HIMES [04:33:56.360 - 04:36:02.120]: Okay. Let me take you to the July 26 called that we have talked a little bit about. You -- you basically haven't disputed the Mr. Holmes characterization of that report although perhaps the mention of Biden you don't recall that, I am actually pretty confident we will get a transcript of that call. A conversation in public between a high profile ambassador and the president of the United States will be the top target not for one but for many foreign intelligence services and because it is pretty sensitive stuff to this inquiry and pretty sensitive stuff because this information could be used to embarrass the President or -- or leverage public officials my guess is we are going to see the transcript, our people are pretty good and if other people have it we are going to see this transcript. JIM HIMES [04:36:02.120 - 04:36:02.120]: Until then all we've got is your recollection and the testimony of the other people there. So I am curious about your frame of mind. This statement the ambassador -- Ambassador Sondland agreed that the President did not give a fig -- not the word used -- about Ukraine is that a statement you might make? Do you believe that the President doesn't give a fig about Ukraine? GORDON SONDLAND [04:36:02.120 - 04:36:07.280]: Are you -- are you Congressman, are you referring to the call or are you referring to my conversation? JIM HIMES [04:36:07.280 - 04:38:05.480]: So Mr. Holmes recounts and I will read it to you, Ambassador Sondland agreed that the President did not give a fig about Ukraine -- Ukraine -- fig was not the word use their and I am asking you whether it is plausible that he might have heard that because I am asking you whether you believe that the President does not give a fig about Ukraine. GORDON SONDLAND [04:38:05.480 - 04:38:05.480]: I don't -- I think that is too strong. I think that based on the May 23 meeting the President was down on Ukraine for the reasons mentioned and would need a lot of convincing and that is why we were pushing so hard for the meeting between the President and President Zelensky because we thought once the two of them might meet his impression of Ukraine, his stock about Ukraine would go up. JIM HIMES [04:38:05.480 - 04:38:08.000]: And -- and what about this line, and Ambassador Sondland replied that he meant quote unquote big stuff that benefits the President? That is what you meant by big stuff? So again we don't have the transcript, I suspect we will but is that something you might say? Do you believe that the President really considers big stuff to be that which benefits him? GORDON SONDLAND [04:38:08.000 - 04:38:08.000]: I don't recall saying benefits him. JIM HIMES [04:38:08.000 - 04:39:20.920]: No, I understand that. I am not asking you what you recall -- I am asking whether it is possible that you might have said that because you believe -- I am asking you what you believe right now that the President doesn't give a fig about Ukraine and in fact cares about the big stuff that benefits the President. JIM HIMES [04:39:20.920 - 04:39:28.400]: Do you believe that now? GORDON SONDLAND [04:39:28.400 - 04:39:31.840]: I really can't -- I really can't opine. JIM HIMES [04:39:31.840 - 04:39:31.920]: Wait -- I'm not asking for your opinion. I'm asking for your beliefs. GORDON SONDLAND [04:39:31.920 - 04:39:48.680]: I -- I -- I don't understand your question. I -- I want to answer your question I just don't understand. JIM HIMES [04:39:48.680 - 04:39:51.000]: Let -- let me try one more time. GORDON SONDLAND [04:39:51.000 - 04:40:00.840]: Okay. JIM HIMES [04:40:00.840 - 04:40:10.560]: Do you believe what is alleged that you said on this phone call that the President cares primarily about stuff -- the big stuff that benefits the President? Is that a belief of yours? GORDON SONDLAND [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: I don't think the President said that on his -- on the phone call. I don't think the President said that to me on the phone call. I was talking about -- ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: The time of the gentleman -- JIM HIMES [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: -- A$AP Rocky and he mentioned investigations. I don't know -- I don't -- I don't know why you are [Inaudible]. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: The time of the gentleman has expired. Mr. Conaway? K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I yield six minutes to Mr. Jordan. JIM JORDAN [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: I thank the gentleman for yielding. Ambassador, when did it happen? GORDON SONDLAND [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: When did what happen? JIM JORDAN [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: The announcement. Wended President Zelensky announce that the investigation was going to happen? On page 14 you said this -- was there a quid pro quo? Today's -- your opening statement. As I testified previously with regard to a requested White House call -- White House meeting the answer is yes that there needed to be a public statement from President Zelensky. JIM JORDAN [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: When the Chairman asked you about the security assistance dollars you said there needed to be a public announcement from Zelensky so I am asking you a simple question. When did that happen? GORDON SONDLAND [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: Never did. JIM JORDAN [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: Never did. They got the call July 25. They got the meeting -- not in the White House but in New York on September 25. They got the money on September 11. When did the meeting happen again? GORDON SONDLAND [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: Never did. JIM JORDAN [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: You don't know who was in the meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: Which meeting are you referring to? JIM JORDAN [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: The meeting that never happened -- who was in it? You know how people -- you know how Zelensky -- GORDON SONDLAND [04:40:10.560 - 04:40:10.560]: The people -- the people that weren't there. JIM JORDAN [04:40:10.560 - 04:41:27.880]: You know how Zelensky -- you know how Zelensky unannounced it? Did he tweet it? Did he do a press statement? Did he do a press conference? Do you know how that happened? I mean you got all three of them wrong. They get the call, they get the meeting, they get the money. It's not two plus two, it's oh for three. JIM JORDAN [04:41:27.880 - 04:42:14.040]: I mean I -- I have never seen anything like this and you -- you told Mr. Castor that the President never told you that the announcement had to happen to get anything. In fact he didn't just not tell you that, he explicitly said the opposite. The gentleman from Texas just read it. You said to the President of the United States what do you want from Ukraine. JIM JORDAN [04:42:14.040 - 04:42:14.040]: The President, I want nothing, I want no quid pro quo. I want Zelensky to do the right thing, I want him to do what he ran on. What did he run on Mr. -- or Ambassador Sondland? GORDON SONDLAND [04:42:14.040 - 04:42:14.120]: Transparency. JIM JORDAN [04:42:14.120 - 04:42:15.760]: And dealing with corruption, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:42:15.760 - 04:42:16.960]: That is right. JIM JORDAN [04:42:16.960 - 04:43:29.560]: Mr. Castor raised another important point, why didn't you put that statement in your opening statement? I think you said you couldn't fit it in, is that right? Said we might be here for 46 minutes instead of 45 minutes. GORDON SONDLAND [04:43:29.560 - 04:43:29.560]: It wasn't -- it wasn't purposeful, trust me. JIM JORDAN [04:43:29.560 - 04:43:29.560]: It wasn't purposeful? GORDON SONDLAND [04:43:29.560 - 04:43:29.560]: No. JIM JORDAN [04:43:29.560 - 04:44:52.720]: Couldn't fit it in in 23 page opener? The most important statement about the subject matter at hand, the President of the United States and a direct conversation with you about the issue at hand and the President says let me read it one more time. What do you want from Ukraine Mr. President? I want nothing, I want no quid pro quo, I want this new guy, brand-new guy in politics, his party just took over, I want Zelensky to do the right thing, I want him to run on and do what he ran on which is deal with corruption and you can't find the time to fit that in a 23 page opening statement. JIM JORDAN [04:44:52.720 - 04:44:52.800]: Do you know what a quid pro quo is? GORDON SONDLAND [04:44:52.800 - 04:44:53.000]: I do. JIM JORDAN [04:44:53.000 - 04:44:54.320]: This for that, right? Looks to me like Ukraine got that three times and there was no this, there was -- we didn't do anything, or excuse me they didn't have to do anything. I have never seen anything and this is -- this is -- when the call came out you all remember this when the call came out everyone said we are going to -- quid pro quo, there is going to be a -- that -- that is what was in the call and of course -- of course that didn't happen, that didn't happen. JIM JORDAN [04:44:54.320 - 04:44:55.240]: Remember what they -- what the complaint said? Remember what the memos said of the whistleblower? This call was frightening, this call was scary, all of those things? None of that materialized. None of that materialized. I yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:44:55.240 - 04:44:55.360]: Ms. Sewell? TERRI A. SEWELL [04:44:55.360 - 04:44:55.640]: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I would like to dig a little deeper this quid pro quo. Did you not say in your opening statement and in previous testimony in closed-door hearing that you thought there was a quid pro quo? GORDON SONDLAND [04:44:55.640 - 04:44:55.640]: I thought the quid pro quo was the White House visit in return for the 2016 DNC server and Burisma investigation announcement. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:44:55.640 - 04:44:55.640]: So when you heard -- when you heard Burisma you did not see that as code for Biden -- the Biden's? GORDON SONDLAND [04:44:55.640 - 04:44:55.640]: I did not. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:44:55.640 - 04:44:55.640]: When did you even know that? Is your testimony that you only realize that Burisma included the Biden's when the readout came out in September 25? GORDON SONDLAND [04:44:55.640 - 04:44:55.640]: No, my testimony wasn't specific as to the date because I really don't recall the date. It was very late in the game though. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:44:55.640 - 04:44:55.640]: September? GORDON SONDLAND [04:44:55.640 - 04:44:55.640]: I don't recall the date. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:44:55.640 - 04:44:55.640]: So if I told you that the legal definition of bribery was an event of offering, giving, soliciting, or receiving of any item of value as a means of influencing an action of an individual holding a public or legal duty, do you believe that not only was it quid pro quo, but it was bribery? GORDON SONDLAND [04:44:55.640 - 04:44:55.640]: I'm not a lawyer and I'm not going to characterize what something was or wasn't legally. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:44:55.640 - 04:46:25.440]: You also said in your opening statement that Secretary Perry and your -- yourself as well as Ambassador Volker worked with Giuliani on the Ukraine matter as -- at express direction of the president. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:46:25.440 - 04:46:25.440]: That's correct. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:46:25.440 - 04:46:25.440]: You also go on to say that we did not want to work with Giuliani simply put, we played the hand that we were dealt. What did you mean by that and, more importantly, what did you think would happen if you did not play that hand? GORDON SONDLAND [04:46:25.440 - 04:46:25.440]: I think what you're asking me is, well, you asked -- TERRI A. SEWELL [04:46:25.440 - 04:46:25.440]: -- I did ask -- GORDON SONDLAND [04:46:25.440 - 04:46:25.440]: -- What would happen if we didn't. It was very fragile with Ukraine at the time. There was no new ambassador. The old ambassador had left. There was a new president. We thought it was very, very important to shore up the relationship. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:46:25.440 - 04:46:25.440]: In fact, you also said -- you go on to say we all understood that if we refused to work with Mr. Giuliani, we would lose an important opportunity to cement relationships with the United States and Ukraine. So you -- so "we followed the president's orders." Did you see it as a directive? GORDON SONDLAND [04:46:25.440 - 04:46:25.440]: I saw it as the only pathway that moving forward on Ukraine. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:46:25.440 - 04:47:13.040]: So you would say that the efforts that Mr. Giuliani was undertaking became a part of the formal Ukraine-U.S. policy? GORDON SONDLAND [04:47:13.040 - 04:47:13.040]: I can't opine on that. All I can tell you is the president wanted us to communicate with Mr. Giuliani, and so we did. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:47:13.040 - 04:48:17.800]: But you went on to say that you -- in your opening testimony, that the suggestion that you engaged in some "irregular or rogue diplomacy" is absolutely false. So if in fact what Giuliani was doing was okay and proper, which is actually what you said, initially you all thought that what he was doing was not improper, right? GORDON SONDLAND [04:48:17.800 - 04:49:47.800]: We did not think it was improper and when I referred to the fact that I was not engaging in rogue diplomacy, by definition, rogue diplomacy would have -- it meant I would not have involved that leadership of the State Department and the White House. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:49:47.800 - 04:49:47.800]: So are you saying that everyone in the chain of command knew about Giuliani's efforts to try to get the investigations into the reason Burisma and to -- and, you know, and sort of -- I'm just trying to figure out what you thought you were actually opining to. GORDON SONDLAND [04:49:47.800 - 04:49:47.800]: Look, the president directed us to work with Mr. Giuliani and the leadership of the State Department were -- work knowledgeable, as was the NSC that we were working with Mr. Giuliani -- TERRI A. SEWELL [04:49:47.800 - 04:51:09.360]: -- Well, what's interesting is that Ambassador Taylor testified that he knew nothing about it. And clearly, he would be in the chain of information if he was the ambassador to Ukraine. At the end of the day, sir, with all due respect, you're the ambassador to the European Union. Why would he not know about it? GORDON SONDLAND [04:51:09.360 - 04:51:09.360]: I don't know -- TERRI A. SEWELL [04:51:09.360 - 04:51:09.360]: -- He was the one who said that there was both a regular and irregular channel. GORDON SONDLAND [04:51:09.360 - 04:51:09.360]: He should have known about it. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:51:09.360 - 04:51:32.360]: So although we don't want -- although you said that you did not want to work with Mr. Giuliani, you in fact did work with him? GORDON SONDLAND [04:51:32.360 - 04:51:32.640]: That's correct. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:51:32.640 - 04:51:32.800]: And do you think that the -- the essence of what he was trying to achieve was accomplished? GORDON SONDLAND [04:51:32.800 - 04:51:32.800]: I don't know what he was trying to achieve. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:51:32.800 - 04:51:42.920]: You clearly had to have known, sir. If you think that this was actually going down the center lane, is what you said, it was clearly important that we -- that we work with Mr. Giuliani to get what that president asked for because it was a directive and an order. Surely you must know whether or not mission was accomplished. GORDON SONDLAND [04:51:42.920 - 04:52:19.680]: Well, I know what Mr. Giuliani communicated to us, which is -- TERRI A. SEWELL [04:52:19.680 - 04:52:23.600]: -- And you thought that that was totally fine? Did you really think that it was okay for -- GORDON SONDLAND [04:52:23.600 - 04:52:27.240]: -- Can I answer your question? TERRI A. SEWELL [04:52:27.240 - 04:52:27.920]: Sure. GORDON SONDLAND [04:52:27.920 - 04:52:34.560]: You asked what -- what Mr. Giuliani was trying to achieve. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:52:34.560 - 04:52:51.280]: No, I asked whether you thought that it was right for Mr. Giuliani to want to accomplish the efforts that he was involved in, which was to get -- get them to investigate Burisma and the 2016 election, as you said. GORDON SONDLAND [04:52:51.280 - 04:53:04.280]: All I can testify to is what I know that Mr. Giuliani either told me directly or told Ambassador Volker and others that was relayed to me. TERRI A. SEWELL [04:53:04.280 - 04:53:06.280]: Thank you. I yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [04:53:06.280 - 04:53:07.480]: Mr. Turner. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:53:07.480 - 04:53:37.560]: Ambassador Sondland, I want to walk through some of the portions of your testimony because sometimes you seem to make direct connections, and sometimes they seem to be dead ends. I kind of want to clear up what are the dead ends and what are the direct connections. Yesterday, Ambassador Volker, who I consider to be very talented and a man of integrity, and I believe you think he's a man of integrity, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:53:37.560 - 04:53:38.000]: I do. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:53:38.000 - 04:54:05.920]: He testified that the president of the United States did not tie either a meeting with the president, a phone call, or any aid to investigations of Burisma, 2016, or that Bidens, that they are -- that the president did not do that. And you've testified that the president did not tell you that he tied them either, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:54:05.920 - 04:54:28.840]: I did testify to that, although when Ambassador Volker and I were working on the statement and negotiating with the Ukrainians, it was clear to Ambassador Volker that a meeting would not happen without the Burisma in 2016. That was very clear to Ambassador Volker. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:54:28.840 - 04:54:45.000]: And how do you know that? What did he say to you? Because he says that was not clear to him. In fact, he says that's not the case. He was working on that. He knows that that's what the president wanted, but he didn't have it as this was a requirement. GORDON SONDLAND [04:54:45.000 - 04:54:54.960]: Oh I -- I strongly disagree with that portion of his testimony. It was absolutely a requirement where or we would have just had the meeting and been done with it. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:54:54.960 - 04:55:00.120]: What about the aid? He says that they weren't tied, that the aid was not tied -- GORDON SONDLAND [04:55:00.120 - 04:55:08.720]: -- And I didn't say they were -- they were conclusively tied either. I said I was presuming it. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:55:08.720 - 04:55:12.240]: Okay. And so the president never told you they were tied. GORDON SONDLAND [04:55:12.240 - 04:55:14.480]: That's correct. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:55:14.480 - 04:55:19.160]: So your testimony, his testimony is consistent in the president not tie aid to investigations. GORDON SONDLAND [04:55:19.160 - 04:55:20.360]: That's correct. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:55:20.360 - 04:55:44.760]: Okay, he also testified that he spoke to Giuliani and that Giuliani did not relate that he was tying on behalf of the president or on the president's behalf aid and that, in fact, Giuliani never said to him that aid was tied to investigations. Now, the question I have for you is did you ever have a conversation with Giuliani that did not involve Volker? MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:55:44.760 - 04:56:10.200]: Because your testimony is a lot of we's and us', so did you -- do you and Giuliani have a separate conference, separate phone call where Giuliani told you that the aide was tied question mark because Volker says, and if he was on your all your phone calls, Volker says that never happened. GORDON SONDLAND [04:56:10.200 - 04:56:32.360]: No, I did have a few conversations. I don't recall how many because I don't have the records, with Mr. Giuliani directly when Mr. Volker wasn't available and I don't believe -- MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:56:32.360 - 04:56:37.440]: -- Did Giuliani say to you -- go ahead. What were you going to say? GORDON SONDLAND [04:56:37.440 - 04:56:43.280]: I don't believe I testified that Mr. Giuliani told me that aid was tied. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:56:43.280 - 04:57:24.280]: Oh, I -- I think -- see, this is part of the problem, Ambassador Sondland, and I just want to walk you through this. Is you've said to us every one was in the loop and everyone. Now hold on a second. Hold on a second. I listen to you today, as a lot of people, and not only are your answers somewhat circular, frequently, you've contradicted yourself in your own answer. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:57:24.280 - 04:57:51.520]: Now, the text messages and emails that you put up there, Kurt Volker walked us through and he has a completely different understanding of what you were saying that what you're saying you were saying. So I'm a little confused as to how everyone is in the loop because there -- if Giuliani didn't give you any express statement, then it can't be that you believe this from Giuliani. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:57:51.520 - 04:57:55.280]: Let me tell you right now because is Donald Trump your friend? GORDON SONDLAND [04:57:55.280 - 04:57:59.160]: No, we're not friends. I -- we have a -- MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:57:59.160 - 04:58:01.640]: -- Okay, do you like the president? GORDON SONDLAND [04:58:01.640 - 04:58:02.320]: Yes. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:58:02.320 - 04:58:32.120]: Well, you know, after you testified, Chairman Schiff ran out and gave a press conference and said he gets to impeach the president of the United States because of your testimony and if you pull up CNN today, right now their banner says "Sondland Ties Trump to Withholding Aid." Is that your testimony today, Mr. -- ambassadors on one, that you have evidence that Donald Trump tied the investigation to aid? MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:58:32.120 - 04:58:34.200]: Because I don't think you're saying that. GORDON SONDLAND [04:58:34.200 - 04:58:41.520]: I've said repeatedly, Congressman, I was presuming. I also said that President Trump never -- MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:58:41.520 - 04:58:58.400]: -- So no one told you. Not just the president. Giuliani didn't tell you, Mulvaney didn't tell you, nobody -- Pompeo didn't tell you, nobody else in this planet told you that Donald Trump was tidying aid to these investigations. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [04:58:58.400 - 04:59:00.720]: I think I already testified -- MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:59:00.720 - 04:59:20.080]: -- No, answer the question. Is it correct? No one on this planet told you that Donald Trump was tying this aid to the investigations? Because if your answer is yes, then the chairman is wrong and the headline on CNN is wrong. No one on this planet told you that President Trump was tying aid to investigations. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:59:20.080 - 04:59:20.960]: Yes or no? GORDON SONDLAND [04:59:20.960 - 04:59:21.480]: Yes. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:59:21.480 - 04:59:29.120]: So you really have no testimony today that ties President Trump to a scheme to withhold aid from Ukraine in exchange for these investigations? GORDON SONDLAND [04:59:29.120 - 04:59:30.320]: Other than my own presumption. MICHAEL R. TURNER [04:59:30.320 - 05:00:12.640]: Which is nothing. I mean, that's what I don't understand. Do you know what hearsay evidence is, ambassador? Hearsay is what I testify what someone else told me. Do you know what made up testimony is? Made up testimony is when I just presume it I mean, you're just assuming all of these things and then you're giving them the evidence that they're running out and doing press conferences and CNN's headline is saying that you're saying the president of the United States should be impeached because he tied aid to investigations and you don't know that, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:00:12.640 - 05:00:20.360]: I never said the president of the United States should be impeached. MICHAEL R. TURNER [05:00:20.360 - 05:00:43.840]: No, but you did -- you have left people with the confusing impression that you are giving testimony that you did not. You do not have any evidence that the president of the United States was tied to withholding aid from the Ukraine in exchange for investigations. I yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:00:43.840 - 05:00:45.040]: Mr. Carson. ANDRE CARSON [05:00:45.040 - 05:01:13.520]: Thank you, Chairman. Ambassador Sondland, I really want to better understand Mr. Giuliani's role in carrying out the president's demand for investigation. So on May 23, sir, during a meeting in the Oval Office to discuss the future of U.S. Ukrainian relations, President Trump told you and others to, quote, talk to Rudy. ANDRE CARSON [05:01:13.520 - 05:01:15.560]: Do I have the right, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [05:01:15.560 - 05:01:16.800]: Correct. ANDRE CARSON [05:01:16.800 - 05:01:25.680]: Mr. Ambassador, did you listen to the president and talk to Rudy, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [05:01:25.680 - 05:01:26.840]: Did I talk to Rudy? ANDRE CARSON [05:01:26.840 - 05:01:28.360]: Yes, sir. GORDON SONDLAND [05:01:28.360 - 05:01:28.840]: Yes. ANDRE CARSON [05:01:28.840 - 05:01:36.440]: What did you understand to be Mr. Giuliani's relationship with President Trump? GORDON SONDLAND [05:01:36.440 - 05:01:42.680]: I understood he was the president's personal lawyer. ANDRE CARSON [05:01:42.680 - 05:01:51.000]: What did you believe to be Mr. Giuliani -- what did you believe Mr. Giuliani was doing in Ukraine for President Trump, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [05:01:51.000 - 05:01:51.640]: I don't know. ANDRE CARSON [05:01:51.640 - 05:02:09.000]: Ambassador Sondland, in August of this year, UN Ambassador Volker spoke with Mr. Giuliani about a draft statement to be issued by President Zelensky. During those discussions it was Mr. Giuliani who suggested, in fact insisted, that the statement include specific language about Burisma, correct, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [05:02:09.000 - 05:02:09.600]: Correct. ANDRE CARSON [05:02:09.600 - 05:02:24.280]: And he insisted that the statement include the mention of the 2016 elections. And Mr. Volker transmitted this message to a top Ukrainian official, right, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [05:02:24.280 - 05:02:25.280]: Correct. ANDRE CARSON [05:02:25.280 - 05:02:36.400]: Mr. Ambassador, and this statement was part of the deliverable that President Trump wanted, correct, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [05:02:36.400 - 05:02:36.960]: Correct. ANDRE CARSON [05:02:36.960 - 05:02:46.640]: To your knowledge, sir, was pushing the Ukrainians to investigate Burisma, 2016 or the Bidens part of some official State Department policy, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [05:02:46.640 - 05:02:55.280]: I never testified that we were pushing anyone to investigate the Bidens. I said Burisma. ANDRE CARSON [05:02:55.280 - 05:03:00.880]: You were involved in Ukrainian policy, right, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [05:03:00.880 - 05:03:06.120]: I told you what my role was, which was quite limited and focused. ANDRE CARSON [05:03:06.120 - 05:03:18.400]: Was it your understanding, Mr. Ambassador, that Ukraine policy should involve investigations into Americans or debunked conspiracy theories about the 2016 election, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [05:03:18.400 - 05:03:35.760]: What I testified was that in order to get President Zelensky a White House visit, Mr. Giuliani conveyed the notion that President Trump wanted these announcements to happen. ANDRE CARSON [05:03:35.760 - 05:03:53.040]: Of course it was not. It was a part of the president's political agenda, and it was done to benefit the president personally and politically. Were you following the president's orders, Mr. Ambassador? GORDON SONDLAND [05:03:53.040 - 05:03:58.240]: I was following the president's direction to speak with Mr. Giuliani. ANDRE CARSON [05:03:58.240 - 05:04:02.840]: Thank you, sir. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:04:02.840 - 05:04:37.920]: I thank the gentleman for yielding. Just want to point out a couple things, Ambassador, in response to my colleagues. My colleagues seem to be under the impression that unless the president spoke the words, Ambassador Sondland, I am bribing the Ukrainian president, that there is no evidence of bribery. If he didn't say, Ambassador Sondland, I am telling you I am not going to give the aid unless they do this, that there is no evidence of a quid pro quo on military aid. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:04:37.920 - 05:05:07.800]: But nonetheless, Ambassador, you've given us a lot of evidence of precisely that conditionality of both the White House meeting and the military assistance. You've told us, ambassador, have you not, that you emailed the secretary of state and said that if these investigations were announced, the new justice person was put in place, that the Ukrainians would be prepared to give the president what he wants and that would break the logjam? ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:05:07.800 - 05:05:15.680]: You've testified and showed us documents about this, have you not, Ambassador? GORDON SONDLAND [05:05:15.680 - 05:05:18.440]: I have. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:05:18.440 - 05:05:29.160]: And in your written statement you say that the logjam you're referring to includes the logjam on security assistance, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:05:29.160 - 05:05:32.560]: Correct, as my presumption. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:05:32.560 - 05:05:59.000]: Yes. And we also have seen, and you testified, that you have also seen Ambassador -- or rather Acting Chief of Staff Mulvaney himself acknowledge that the military aid was withheld in part over the investigation into 2016 that you've talked about. You referenced that as well, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:05:59.000 - 05:06:00.600]: Correct. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:06:00.600 - 05:06:24.760]: Now they also seem to say that, well, they got the money. The money may have been conditioned, but they got the money. Yes, they got caught. They got caught. Now they still don't have the White House meeting. They made no statement. They got no meeting. The statement on the investigations was the condition to get the meeting. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:06:24.760 - 05:06:44.280]: They didn't make the statement. They got no meeting. But they got caught. You are aware, aren't you, Ambassador, that two days before the aid was lifted, this inexplicable aid was lifted, Congress announced it was investigating this scheme. You are aware of that, aren't you, Ambassador? GORDON SONDLAND [05:06:44.280 - 05:06:45.160]: I am now, yes. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:06:45.160 - 05:06:46.480]: Dr. Wenstrup. BRAD WENSTRUP [05:06:46.480 - 05:07:27.880]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to address something, a claim that you made this morning claiming that Republicans deny Russian attempts to influence our elections. That is false, and you know it, in this committee, the Intel Committee, not the impeachment committee, but in this committee time and time again we all agree that Russia has tried to influence American elections as far back as the Soviet Union. BRAD WENSTRUP [05:07:27.880 - 05:08:20.000]: So I wish you would quit -- quit making that comment. Yesterday we established with Mr. Volker something quite obvious. More than one country can try to influence our elections. See, Mr. Schiff, we didn't agree with your Russian collusion narrative, your DNC, Clinton campaign coup attempt that occurred in conjunction with members of the FBI and DOJ and foreign sources, something that you have conveniently ignored as chairman of the Intelligence Committee as you became the chairman of the impeachment committee. BRAD WENSTRUP [05:08:20.000 - 05:08:58.480]: But in this process today, I'm interested in facts. I'm not a prosecutor or a defense attorney. I'm not an attorney like Mr. Turner. Ambassador Sondland, you honestly have used the words presumed, presumption, presuming, some form of the verb to presume repeatedly today, and today you said that was the problem, Mr. Goldman, no one ever told me the aid was tied to anything. BRAD WENSTRUP [05:08:58.480 - 05:09:51.640]: I was presuming it was. You see, in mathematics fact 2+2 does equal 4. But in reality, two presumptions plus two presumptions does not equal even one fact. And the fact is the president did tell you, Ambassador Sondland, no quid pro quo. That's a fact. And another fact, no quid pro quo occurred. At this time I'd like to yield to Mr. Conaway. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:09:51.640 - 05:10:13.760]: Thank you, gentleman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to -- unanimous consent to enter into the record a Washington Post article from today that's headlined Schiff's claim that the whistleblower has a statutory right to anonymity received three Pinocchios, Pinocchios meaning that -- well, we all know what Pinocchios mean. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:10:13.760 - 05:10:44.600]: The interpretation of that would be that -- two interpretations. One that my colleagues on the other side would argue is they're trying to protect the whistleblower. An equally valid and credible interpretation is that there is something to hide and that this unlevel playing field that's been created by the chairman's insistence that there is a statutory right to anonymity maintains that unlevel playing field and the advantages that gives them. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:10:44.600 - 05:11:11.160]: Now the chairman also announces at every hearing that he will not tolerate, and I agree with him, any witness intimidation, any threats or any issues of trying to bully a witness. Ambassador Sondland, have you, your family or your businesses received any threats or reprisals or attempts to harm you in any way? GORDON SONDLAND [05:11:11.160 - 05:11:11.520]: Many. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:11:11.520 - 05:11:14.320]: Could you give us an example or two? GORDON SONDLAND [05:11:14.320 - 05:11:22.040]: We have countless emails apparently to my wife. Our properties are being picketed and boycotted. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:11:22.040 - 05:12:03.000]: Let's explore that one. Our own colleague, Congressman Earl Blumenauer from Oregon, has in fact called for a boycott of your hotel chains or your hotels in Oregon. I'm assuming he believes that that will harm you to the point that you will then be bullied into doing whatever he wants done. Now my colleagues and I know that using the word bully and Earl Blumenauer in the same sentence is a bit over-the-top, but nevertheless, he intended to harm you and your businesses. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:12:03.000 - 05:12:05.480]: Is that what you would surmise? GORDON SONDLAND [05:12:05.480 - 05:12:07.240]: That's my understanding. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:12:07.240 - 05:12:23.800]: And that the boycotts -- his call for boycott gave rise to demonstrations in front of your hotels that made your customers have to weave in and out of the demonstrators to try to actually get into the hotels? GORDON SONDLAND [05:12:23.800 - 05:12:25.920]: As I understand, they are going on as we speak. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:12:25.920 - 05:12:54.000]: Well, the words are better put by a couple other Oregonians. It says, Congressman Blumenauer's irresponsible attempt to hurt a home-grown business that supports hundreds of jobs in our local economy is just shameful and ought to be an outrage to all Oregonians. Some fellow named McDermott. And then a lady named L. Carmichel who I believe works for you, said, we are saddened to have our Congressman Earl Blumenauer call for a boycott that would put the livelihoods of thousands of his constituents in peril. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:12:54.000 - 05:13:41.520]: The attack on our employees is unwarranted, and I couldn't agree more, Mr. Ambassador. Mr. Blumenauer should not be using the vast influences that we as members of Congress has to bully you and your businesses and to harm the hundreds or thousands of employees that they -- that operate in your business by trying to take business away from you to force you into doing something that they wanted you to do, which is actually testify, and you've actually done that. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:13:41.520 - 05:14:08.720]: But that's a shame for that. And I'm hopeful that my colleagues on the other side of the aisle will join me in saying, Mr. Blumenauer, you really shouldn't be using your congressional influence to try to bully and threaten a witness before these proceedings. That is just wrong. I look forward to my colleagues' response. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:14:08.720 - 05:14:10.400]: And I yield back. GORDON SONDLAND [05:14:10.400 - 05:14:12.640]: Thank you, Congressman. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:14:12.640 - 05:14:14.120]: Ms. Speier. JACKIE SPEIER [05:14:14.120 - 05:14:35.840]: I was somewhat humored by your request that Mr. Blumenauer not bully to get something done when all we're talking about is the president bullying to get something he wants done. But having said that, I'd like to clarify one point about the whistleblower protection from the article that Mr. Conaway just provided. JACKIE SPEIER [05:14:35.840 - 05:15:16.160]: The law reads, expressly restricts the inspector general's office from disclosing whistleblowers identities. It says, "The inspector general shall not disclose the identity of the employee without the consent of the employee, unless the Inspector General determines that such disclosure is unavoidable during the course of the investigation or the disclosure is made to an official of the Department of Justice responsible for determining whether a prosecution should be undertaken." That appears to be the lone statutory restriction on disclosing a whistleblowers identity, applicable only to the inspector general's office. JACKIE SPEIER [05:15:16.160 - 05:15:49.080]: We found no court rulings on whether whistleblowers have a right to anonymity under the ICWPA or related statutes. Vladeck said it is nonetheless a best practice to avoid disclosure of the Ukraine whistleblower's identity given the concerns about retaliation. McCullough said we've stepped into bizarro-land when senior policymakers are trying to yank a CIA employee into the public spotlight in retaliation for making a whistleblower -- blowing complaint, especially when they are credible threats to that employee's personal safety. JACKIE SPEIER [05:15:49.080 - 05:15:54.920]: And I don't know why our colleagues on the other side of the aisle -- K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:15:54.920 - 05:15:56.840]: -- Will the gentlelady yield? JACKIE SPEIER [05:15:56.840 - 05:15:57.400]: I'm -- K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:15:57.400 - 05:15:59.760]: -- Will the gentlelady yield? JACKIE SPEIER [05:15:59.760 - 05:16:06.720]: No, I'm -- I'm afraid I only have three minutes and I have some other issues. But thank you, Mr. Conaway. K. MICHAEL CONAWAY [05:16:06.720 - 05:16:19.600]: Well, the end of the article does go through that, and also says it's three Pinocchios in spite of that conversation. JACKIE SPEIER [05:16:19.600 - 05:16:59.680]: Well, Mr. -- the president of the United States has five Pinocchios on a daily basis, so let's not go there. Ambassador Sondland, in your deposition, you lamented, "I was truly disappointed that the State Department prevented me at the last minute from testifying earlier on October 8th, 2019, but your issuance of a subpoena has supported my appearance today, and I am pleased to provide the following testimony." So, it is clear that the White House, the State Department did not want you to testify at that deposition. JACKIE SPEIER [05:16:59.680 - 05:17:01.360]: Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:17:01.360 - 05:17:02.080]: That's correct. JACKIE SPEIER [05:17:02.080 - 05:17:19.240]: And since then, you have on numerous occasions during your opening statement today indicated that you have not been able to access documents in the State Department. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:17:19.240 - 05:17:20.520]: Correct. JACKIE SPEIER [05:17:20.520 - 05:17:27.120]: So, you have been hampered in your ability to provide testimony to this committee. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:17:27.120 - 05:17:37.120]: I've been hampered to provide completely accurate testimony without the benefit of those documents. JACKIE SPEIER [05:17:37.120 - 05:17:47.040]: In terms of your conversations with the president of the United States, what percentage of your conversations were about Ukraine as compared to your other duties? GORDON SONDLAND [05:17:47.040 - 05:17:48.320]: I don't recall. JACKIE SPEIER [05:17:48.320 - 05:17:54.760]: Well, in -- you've only had six conversations or seven conversations with the president, you said. So -- GORDON SONDLAND [05:17:54.760 - 05:17:58.360]: -- About -- about Ukraine, I think. JACKIE SPEIER [05:17:58.360 - 05:18:01.920]: So, you've had many other conversations? GORDON SONDLAND [05:18:01.920 - 05:18:04.120]: Oh, yeah, about unrelated -- completely unrelated matters. JACKIE SPEIER [05:18:04.120 - 05:18:09.880]: So, how many conversations with the president of the United States have you had? GORDON SONDLAND [05:18:09.880 - 05:18:20.160]: Again, I don't want to give you a number because it's going to be wrong if I don't have the records. JACKIE SPEIER [05:18:20.160 - 05:18:21.560]: Is it less than 20? GORDON SONDLAND [05:18:21.560 - 05:18:23.440]: It's probably in that range. JACKIE SPEIER [05:18:23.440 - 05:18:29.720]: All right. Would you say that delay in military aid and the lack of a meeting in the White House works to the benefit of Russia? GORDON SONDLAND [05:18:29.720 - 05:18:31.560]: Repeat the question again, please? JACKIE SPEIER [05:18:31.560 - 05:18:39.120]: Would you say that the delayed -- delay in -- in military aid to Ukraine and the reluctance to have a White House meeting has a benefit to Russia? GORDON SONDLAND [05:18:39.120 - 05:18:44.040]: I think it could be looked that way, yes -- looked at that way, yes. JACKIE SPEIER [05:18:44.040 - 05:19:15.920]: All right. I'm going to just speak very briefly about code. When the -- when Michael Cohen was before the Oversight Committee, he was asked, you suggest the president sometimes communicates his wishes indirectly. For example, you say, "Mr. Trump did not directly tell me to lie to Congress. That's not how he operates." It would be different, he said, the nice -- he doesn't give you questions. JACKIE SPEIER [05:19:15.920 - 05:19:28.560]: He doesn't give you orders. He speaks in code, and I understand the code because I've been around him for a decade. So, do you think that the president was speaking in code when he would talk about wanting investigations? GORDON SONDLAND [05:19:28.560 - 05:19:40.840]: I don't -- I can't characterize how the president was speaking. Every conversation I have had with the president has been fairly direct and straightforward. JACKIE SPEIER [05:19:40.840 - 05:19:44.080]: All right. With that, I yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:19:44.080 - 05:19:46.040]: Mr. Stewart? CHRIS STEWART [05:19:46.040 - 05:19:51.120]: Mr. Chairman, I have unanimous consent request. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:19:51.120 - 05:19:53.200]: You may state your request. CHRIS STEWART [05:19:53.200 - 05:20:16.000]: The DOE responds to Ambassador Sondland's comments before the House Intelligence Committee attributed to the DOE Secretary of -- of the press secretary. Ambassador Sondland's testimony today misrepresented both Secretary Perry's interaction and -- with Rudy Giuliani and direction the secretary received from President Trump. CHRIS STEWART [05:20:16.000 - 05:20:38.080]: As previously stated, Secretary Perry spoke to Rudy Giuliani only once at the president's request. No one else was on that call. At no point before, during, or after the phone call did the words Biden or Burisma ever come up in the presence of the -- of Secretary Perry. Again, I ask that that be entered into the record. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:20:38.080 - 05:20:45.800]: Without objection, although I would note that they've also refused to come and testify under oath. CHRIS STEWART [05:20:45.800 - 05:21:13.480]: The American people expect a lot of things out of politics, arguments, protests. We certainly see that, clash of principles and ideas. I think sometimes eventually they actually would like to see some compromise. But I think something they expect above everything else, fundamentally they expect there is a sense of fairness about it. And I want to read part of a text I received from someone that I have tremendous respect for. CHRIS STEWART [05:21:13.480 - 05:21:39.760]: And just a few hours ago, she wrote crafting a story to hurt another human being can never be right. The means of destroying and hurting another individual just does not justify the end, and politics does not give anyone free pass to destroy other people. Now, you can say a lot about the treatment of President Trump over the last three years, but I think one thing you cannot argue is that it has been fair. CHRIS STEWART [05:21:39.760 - 05:22:00.920]: There were those calling for his impeachment literally before he was inaugurated. For two and a half years, we were told every single day he has betrayed our country. He is a Russian asset. He has committed treason, accusations that we know now are not true and for which we never have any evidence to support that. CHRIS STEWART [05:22:00.920 - 05:22:22.960]: He was accused of obstruction, and now here we are actually impeaching the President over, well, first quid pro quo until we found out that didn't poll very well with focus groups, and then it was bribery until virtually every witness before us who was asked the question said they had no evidence of bribery. CHRIS STEWART [05:22:22.960 - 05:22:47.320]: And now it's extortion. And again, the American people expect some sense of fairness. So, when Nancy Pelosi goes, before she has seen a shred of evidence, and she announces the president has betrayed his oath of office, he has betrayed the American people, he betrayed national security without seeing any evidence, again, the American people say, well, what is fair about that? CHRIS STEWART [05:22:47.320 - 05:23:12.600]: So, the -- the question before us now is, again, extortion. And that's the -- that's the latest version of the charges against the president. And I'm not an attorney. Extortion sounds pretty scary. It's kind of serious. I had to look it up, what it means. It means obtaining money or property by threat to the victims property or loved ones. CHRIS STEWART [05:23:12.600 - 05:23:46.200]: Mr. Ambassador, I'm going to read you a couple quotes from President Zelensky and then ask you a question. First, from a Ukrainian press release, Donald Trump is convinced that the new Ukrainian government will be able to quickly improve the image of Ukraine, complete investigation of corruption, which inhibited the interaction between Ukraine and the USA. Does that sound like President Zelensky is being bribed or extorted in that comment? GORDON SONDLAND [05:23:46.200 - 05:23:52.440]: As I testified previously, I'm not a lawyer either. And I don't want to characterize -- CHRIS STEWART [05:23:52.440 - 05:23:53.720]: -- Well, okay -- GORDON SONDLAND [05:23:53.720 - 05:23:59.120]: -- Any -- any legal terms. I really don't. CHRIS STEWART [05:23:59.120 - 05:24:24.280]: That -- that's fine. I think most people would read that and say that doesn't sound like he's under severe pressure. He makes it very clear in his own words then. Ukrainian President Zelensky told reporters during a joint press conference with Donald Trump that he was not pressured by the U.S. president. CHRIS STEWART [05:24:24.280 - 05:24:43.120]: Again, I was not pressured. Here's another time. There was no blackmail. I would ask you, do you think he felt like he was being extorted by the president based on these comments? GORDON SONDLAND [05:24:43.120 - 05:24:45.360]: I really think that's for the committee in the Congress to -- CHRIS STEWART [05:24:45.360 - 05:24:49.760]: -- Well, you know what, Mr. Ambassador? It's really for the American people. GORDON SONDLAND [05:24:49.760 - 05:24:50.600]: I agree. CHRIS STEWART [05:24:50.600 - 05:25:24.600]: And the American people aren't stupid. And the American people can hear that and they can say I don't think he was under duress. I don't think he was being extorted. I don't think there was an exchange of a bribe. And I would conclude with this last observation. It is common for our national policy to withhold aid for various reasons. CHRIS STEWART [05:25:24.600 - 05:25:28.200]: You know that's true as an ambassador. Is that not true? GORDON SONDLAND [05:25:28.200 - 05:25:31.240]: That's true. CHRIS STEWART [05:25:31.240 - 05:25:35.000]: It's frequent, isn't it, that we will withhold aid for various reasons? It -- GORDON SONDLAND [05:25:35.000 - 05:25:36.200]: -- That's correct -- CHRIS STEWART [05:25:36.200 - 05:26:05.360]: -- It is a policy. I mean, for example, President Bush did it. He suspended military aid to 35 countries over their lack of support for the international criminal court. I'll bet that helped his political standing back home. But I don't remember anyone suggesting we should impeach him for it. President Trump did it last year with Afghanistan over corruption. CHRIS STEWART [05:26:05.360 - 05:26:21.280]: We did it with Pakistan over much the same thing. And no one suggested that we impeach them for it. This is a common occurrence in international relations. It is hardly an impeachable offense. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:26:21.280 - 05:26:25.160]: The time of the gentleman is expired. Mr. Quigley? MIKE QUIGLEY [05:26:25.160 - 05:26:57.840]: Thank you sir for being here today. You know there are things we can agree with our colleagues on, things we can disagree. I can agree that with my colleague that we should turn over all of -- the documents should be turned over. Mr. Ambassador I think you will agree that it would have helped your testimony, help to understood that the State Department, the White House hasn't turned over a single document, the White House one -- the President's April phone conversation but millions more out there. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:26:57.840 - 05:27:31.600]: So on that we can agree. On others we can disagree as to particularly as it relates to the whistleblower. It distresses me because I began to wonder about the motivations. In the final analysis they way I look at this is if we were investigating an arson you all would -- would indict the person who pulled the fire alarm. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:27:31.600 - 05:28:03.400]: That person's job is done and we have seen the smoke and we have seen the fire. Whatever the whistleblower did doesn't change the president's actions, doesn't change the president's own words which are in our testimony or in our -- our body of evidence. It doesn't change Mr. Mulvaney's own words, it doesn't change the body of evidence here. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:28:03.400 - 05:28:48.200]: All it does is put this person at risk. Back to the documents and what you know and including Mr. Ambassador you seem to have your memory jog by documents, let's talk about May 23 and see if this one helps you. Senator Johnson in referencing the May 23 meeting in his letter, sir says I have no recollection the press -- the President saying that during the meeting is entirely possible he did because I do not work for the President made the comment simply did not register with me. He also says I also remember Sondland staying behind to talk to the President as the rest of the delegation left the Oval Office. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:28:48.200 - 05:28:54.600]: Sir do you recall this later conversation and what you and the President discussed? GORDON SONDLAND [05:28:54.600 - 05:28:55.560]: I do. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:28:55.560 - 05:28:58.200]: And what was that? GORDON SONDLAND [05:28:58.200 - 05:29:17.120]: Just again recapping what was sort of a free-for-all conversation and I wanted to tie down exactly what -- what we agreed to do and what we didn't. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:29:17.120 - 05:29:26.280]: And in that subsequent he reinforced talk to Rudy and -- GORDON SONDLAND [05:29:26.280 - 05:29:29.760]: Talked to Rudy, you guys should work on this. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:29:29.760 - 05:29:32.360]: Did he go into any more detail about what that meant? GORDON SONDLAND [05:29:32.360 - 05:29:33.840]: No. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:29:33.840 - 05:29:38.800]: Just said talk to Rudy? GORDON SONDLAND [05:29:38.800 - 05:29:40.840]: It was a very short conversation. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:29:40.840 - 05:29:50.720]: And the second part you said there was something besides just talk to Rudy? GORDON SONDLAND [05:29:50.720 - 05:29:57.200]: Yeah, to you know reconfirm that the three of us would be working on the Ukraine file and so on. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:29:57.200 - 05:30:09.280]: Back to Rudy in this seemingly contradictory passage messages here you now recall the prerequisite mentioned in the July 10 meeting, right, that when you were having this discussion, the first meeting in John Bolton's office, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [05:30:09.280 - 05:30:09.600]: Yes. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:30:09.600 - 05:30:12.200]: That you reference that there was condition? Correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:30:12.200 - 05:30:28.880]: I -- I believe someone else testified that I raise that and I didn't dispute that testimony that I said it is my understanding that in order to get this visit done there needs to be an announcement about and I don't know if I said investigations or said specifically Burisma and -- and [Inaudible]. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:30:28.880 - 05:30:50.360]: Sure, but in your opening you mentioned at the very same time that apparently there was a meeting with Rudy Giuliani and the message you got was underscored very concerned about what Lutsenko told them that according to RG, Rudy Giuliani, the Z POTUS meeting will not happen which is not a condition, that is just not going to happen. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:30:50.360 - 05:30:52.400]: Your understanding of the difference here? GORDON SONDLAND [05:30:52.400 - 05:31:01.880]: I think what you -- what you are saying is this meeting I was talking about in my opening statement was apparently a meeting that Rudy Giuliani was having -- MIKE QUIGLEY [05:31:01.880 - 05:31:03.480]: At the same time. GORDON SONDLAND [05:31:03.480 - 05:31:06.760]: -- at the same time in Ukraine. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:31:06.760 - 05:31:06.960]: Right. GORDON SONDLAND [05:31:06.960 - 05:31:08.600]: Unbeknownst to us. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:31:08.600 - 05:31:18.920]: Right, but he is saying something different. He is saying it's not going to happen, there's no notice in here that it is conditioned in any way. GORDON SONDLAND [05:31:18.920 - 05:31:33.840]: Well, that was Ambassador Volker's point. This was really and exchange with -- with Ambassador Taylor and Ambassador Volker. Ambassador Volker is saying don't let other people speak for the U.S. government. That was his point. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:31:33.840 - 05:31:45.920]: But if Rudy is following the directions and he is saying what he is saying here and you are also following directions, right? And you are saying it is conditioned who is giving you the instructions to say what you are saying? GORDON SONDLAND [05:31:45.920 - 05:31:50.640]: That is why we thought it was problematic to work with Mr. Giuliani. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:31:50.640 - 05:32:04.640]: Exactly but who did you work with to say the things that you said? Did you have conversations with the chief of staff, with Secretary Pompeo to say what you are saying? You didn't just say this on your own. GORDON SONDLAND [05:32:04.640 - 05:32:09.160]: Are you talking about in the July 10 meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [05:32:09.160 - 05:32:16.880]: Yes, with Ambassador Volker because at that point Ambassador Volker was the one in touch with Mr. Giuliani, not me. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:32:16.880 - 05:32:26.000]: But you had no direct conversations with Mr. Mulvaney about this or Secretary Pompeo to make this condition statement? GORDON SONDLAND [05:32:26.000 - 05:32:30.000]: Only the text and emails that I have already reviewed. MIKE QUIGLEY [05:32:30.000 - 05:32:32.240]: Thank you. My time is up. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:32:32.240 - 05:32:33.480]: Mr. Stefanik? ELISE STEFANIK [05:32:33.480 - 05:32:50.000]: Thank you Ambassador Sondland for your service and I also want to thank you for your recognition in your opening statement of your hard-working staff at the U.S. Mission to the EU. Mr. Sondland you testified that you never received any direct confirmation or specific information as to why there was a hold on aid. GORDON SONDLAND [05:32:50.000 - 05:32:50.720]: That is correct. ELISE STEFANIK [05:32:50.720 - 05:32:57.640]: And in fact you testified "President Trump never told me directly that the aid was conditioned on the investigations". GORDON SONDLAND [05:32:57.640 - 05:32:58.920]: That is correct. ELISE STEFANIK [05:32:58.920 - 05:33:08.480]: You said quote never heard those words from the President, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:33:08.480 - 05:33:09.120]: Correct. ELISE STEFANIK [05:33:09.120 - 05:33:31.200]: Instead you testified that in your September 9 call with President Trump the President said "no quid pro quo, I want nothing, I want nothing. I want President Zelensky to do the right thing, do what he ran on". Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:33:31.200 - 05:33:32.040]: That is correct. ELISE STEFANIK [05:33:32.040 - 05:33:38.040]: And the fact is the aid was given to Ukraine without any announcement of new investigations. GORDON SONDLAND [05:33:38.040 - 05:33:39.160]: That is correct. ELISE STEFANIK [05:33:39.160 - 05:33:48.280]: And President Trump did in fact meet with President Zelensky in September at the United Nations, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:33:48.280 - 05:33:48.880]: He did. ELISE STEFANIK [05:33:48.880 - 05:33:53.840]: And there was no announcement of investigations before this meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [05:33:53.840 - 05:33:54.080]: Correct. ELISE STEFANIK [05:33:54.080 - 05:33:59.600]: And there was no announcement of the investigations after this meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [05:33:59.600 - 05:34:00.960]: That is right. ELISE STEFANIK [05:34:00.960 - 05:34:23.240]: And you have been very clear when chairmanships has ask you broadly about investigations. You have corrected that to say specifically your understanding of investigations our investigation into the 2016 elections and investigations into Burisma, is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:34:23.240 - 05:34:24.240]: That is correct. ELISE STEFANIK [05:34:24.240 - 05:34:33.960]: And are you aware that during the Obama administration the U.S. partnered with the UK and Ukraine on an investigation into the owner of Burisma as part of Ukraine's anticorruption efforts? GORDON SONDLAND [05:34:33.960 - 05:34:36.240]: I became aware of it today during the hearing. ELISE STEFANIK [05:34:36.240 - 05:34:58.560]: Other witnesses have testified but yes. And in fact the Obama administration State Department was concerned about the potential appearance of conflict of interest with Hunter Biden serving on the board of Burisma because they raise this as they were preparing Ambassador Yovanovitch for her Senate confirmation. ELISE STEFANIK [05:34:58.560 - 05:35:01.160]: Are you aware of that? GORDON SONDLAND [05:35:01.160 - 05:35:02.640]: I am not aware of it. ELISE STEFANIK [05:35:02.640 - 05:35:39.560]: She testified and I -- when I ask her that question both in the open hearing and the closed deposition and I have asked most of our witnesses this and every witness I have asked has said yes and I want to ask you this today. Do you believe that Hunter Biden having a position on the board of Burisma has the potential appearance of a conflict of interest? GORDON SONDLAND [05:35:39.560 - 05:35:48.520]: I don't want to characterize Hunter Biden service on the board one way or another. I just don't know enough. ELISE STEFANIK [05:35:48.520 - 05:35:58.680]: So you disagree with every other witness that has answered yes, there is a potential appearance of a conflict of interest? GORDON SONDLAND [05:35:58.680 - 05:36:01.840]: Well, you ask if there was a conflict or an appearance -- ELISE STEFANIK [05:36:01.840 - 05:36:08.920]: A potential -- my quote was the potential appearance of a conflict of interest. GORDON SONDLAND [05:36:08.920 - 05:36:13.560]: I didn't hear the word appearance. Well, clearly it is an appearance of a conflict. ELISE STEFANIK [05:36:13.560 - 05:36:39.800]: Correct. Clearly it is an appearance of conflict of interest. Again this is something that every witness has answered yes to or agreed it could have a potential appearance in the end we are not allowed to call Hunter Biden to answer questions in front of this committee. Thank you again for your truthful testimony today and I yield back. GORDON SONDLAND [05:36:39.800 - 05:36:42.160]: Thank you. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:36:42.160 - 05:36:47.880]: Mr. Swalwell? ERIC SWALWELL [05:36:47.880 - 05:37:17.400]: Ambassador Sondland you were told by the President and others to not show up, you showed up. I think that says a lot about you and I think history will look kindly on you doing that. But there are consequences to that and just a couple of hours ago President Trump was asked about you and he said I don't know him well, I have not spoken to him much. ERIC SWALWELL [05:37:17.400 - 05:37:20.480]: This is not a man I know well. Is that true? GORDON SONDLAND [05:37:20.480 - 05:37:29.280]: It -- it really depends on what you mean by know well. We are not close friends, no. We have a professional cordial working relationship. ERIC SWALWELL [05:37:29.280 - 05:37:33.360]: And in that working relationship he knows who you are? GORDON SONDLAND [05:37:33.360 - 05:37:34.080]: Yes. ERIC SWALWELL [05:37:34.080 - 05:37:41.760]: And he has spoken to you often? GORDON SONDLAND [05:37:41.760 - 05:37:42.720]: What's often? ERIC SWALWELL [05:37:42.720 - 05:37:46.800]: Well, you said at least 20 times? GORDON SONDLAND [05:37:46.800 - 05:37:50.000]: Okay. If that's often then it's often. ERIC SWALWELL [05:37:50.000 - 05:37:55.200]: And you donated $1 million to his inaugural committee, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [05:37:55.200 - 05:37:58.760]: I bought a VIP ticket to the inauguration. ERIC SWALWELL [05:37:58.760 - 05:38:00.000]: That's a lot of money isn't it? GORDON SONDLAND [05:38:00.000 - 05:38:00.840]: It's a lot of money. ERIC SWALWELL [05:38:00.840 - 05:38:22.320]: And after that the President makes you ambassador to the European Union, eventually the ambassador to the Ukraine is removed and as you told us in your deposition you become a central figure as it relates to Ukraine. That's a pretty big responsibility, right? GORDON SONDLAND [05:38:22.320 - 05:38:31.560]: Well, I don't know that I said I was a central figure in. I was one of several people who were tasked to work on the Ukraine file. ERIC SWALWELL [05:38:31.560 - 05:38:40.120]: And would you ever in that big responsibility take any actions that were not authorized by President Trump? GORDON SONDLAND [05:38:40.120 - 05:38:49.320]: Well, by President Trump or the leadership from the State Department. ERIC SWALWELL [05:38:49.320 - 05:38:59.320]: Were you ever hauled into the leadership of the State Department for any actions you were taking -- you had taken are around your work on Ukraine? GORDON SONDLAND [05:38:59.320 - 05:38:59.800]: No. ERIC SWALWELL [05:38:59.800 - 05:39:23.160]: As to Rudy Giuliani, on May 23 the President told you talk to Rudy. You talk to him a couple of times. You -- as you told us in September talked to the President a couple of times. Did the President ever say to you stop talking to Rudy? GORDON SONDLAND [05:39:23.160 - 05:39:23.600]: No. ERIC SWALWELL [05:39:23.600 - 05:39:26.480]: Well did he ever say don't any longer talk to Rudy? GORDON SONDLAND [05:39:26.480 - 05:39:28.160]: No. ERIC SWALWELL [05:39:28.160 - 05:39:38.720]: On Ukraine you said that you were playing the hand you were dealt. President Trump was the dealer, wasn't he? GORDON SONDLAND [05:39:38.720 - 05:39:42.560]: President Trump was what? ERIC SWALWELL [05:39:42.560 - 05:39:52.920]: The dealer. In your metaphor you were playing the hand you were dealt, the dealer was President Trump, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [05:39:52.920 - 05:40:06.960]: I will -- I will recharacterize your question by saying we follow the direction of the President because that was the only pathway to working with Ukraine. ERIC SWALWELL [05:40:06.960 - 05:40:28.160]: On page 4 of your testimony you said given what we know -- my given what we knew at the time, what we were asked to do did not appear to be wrong and you would agree now ambassador knowing what you know now, what you did not know at the time, there are some things around Ukraine that were wrong? GORDON SONDLAND [05:40:28.160 - 05:40:30.240]: I agree. ERIC SWALWELL [05:40:30.240 - 05:41:03.400]: So let's take out any leveraging of security assistance over the Ukrainians and a White House visit. Would you agree that it is wrong for the President of the United States to ask the leader of a foreign government to investigate the President of the United States political opponent? GORDON SONDLAND [05:41:03.400 - 05:41:04.440]: Yes. ERIC SWALWELL [05:41:04.440 - 05:41:19.840]: Would you agree that in addition to making that request for an investigation, leveraging a visit at the White House that a foreign government leader desperately needs is also wrong? GORDON SONDLAND [05:41:19.840 - 05:41:22.320]: Leveraging in what respect? ERIC SWALWELL [05:41:22.320 - 05:41:42.120]: A meeting at the White House. If someone really needs a meeting at the White House to show their legitimacy to their people, then leveraging that meeting and asking for an investigation would be wrong? GORDON SONDLAND [05:41:42.120 - 05:42:00.000]: Well, to be candid, Congressman, every meeting at the White House has conditions placed on it. I've never worked on a meeting at the White House that doesn't have a host of conditions placed on it. ERIC SWALWELL [05:42:00.000 - 05:42:09.360]: But if one of those conditions is to investigate a political opponent, you would agree that would be wrong? GORDON SONDLAND [05:42:09.360 - 05:42:20.560]: The political opponent, yes, but making announcements or investigations, per se, no. ERIC SWALWELL [05:42:20.560 - 05:42:41.080]: And if you asked a foreign government leader to investigate your political opponent, leveraged a White House meeting and leveraged security assistance, in this hypothetical you would agree all three of those are wrong? GORDON SONDLAND [05:42:41.080 - 05:42:45.840]: In the hypothetical, yes, I would agree. ERIC SWALWELL [05:42:45.840 - 05:42:55.960]: Now you before coming an ambassador worked as a businessman, and I presume you worked on a lot of deals. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [05:42:55.960 - 05:42:56.840]: Correct. ERIC SWALWELL [05:42:56.840 - 05:43:00.480]: Involving millions of dollars? GORDON SONDLAND [05:43:00.480 - 05:43:03.160]: Correct. ERIC SWALWELL [05:43:03.160 - 05:43:12.720]: You work for a guy now who wrote a book called Art of the Deal. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [05:43:12.720 - 05:43:14.560]: I do. ERIC SWALWELL [05:43:14.560 - 05:43:38.880]: And State Department employees have told us that they don't want to make legal definitions around what occurred with of the White House meeting being leveraged against the investigations, but you plainly call it a quid pro quo. Is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [05:43:38.880 - 05:43:40.160]: I did. ERIC SWALWELL [05:43:40.160 - 05:44:04.200]: And finally, one final hypothetical. If someone walks through those two doors wearing rain boots, a raincoat and holding an umbrella with raindrops falling off of them, do you have to see outside that it's raining to presume or conclude that it might be raining outside? GORDON SONDLAND [05:44:04.200 - 05:44:08.720]: I understand your hypothetical. ERIC SWALWELL [05:44:08.720 - 05:44:10.040]: I yield back. GORDON SONDLAND [05:44:10.040 - 05:44:10.600]: Thank you. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:44:10.600 - 05:44:11.280]: Mr. Hurd. WILL HURD [05:44:11.280 - 05:44:17.600]: Thank you. Mr. Ambassador. Good to see you. GORDON SONDLAND [05:44:17.600 - 05:44:18.560]: Good to see you. WILL HURD [05:44:18.560 - 05:44:33.080]: My colleague from California basically implied that you've been supportive of President Trump's campaign. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:44:33.080 - 05:44:37.040]: I'm having a very hard time hearing you, sir. WILL HURD [05:44:37.040 - 05:44:43.600]: My colleague from California indicated that you were supportive of the president's campaign. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:44:43.600 - 05:44:51.080]: I actually donated to the inaugural committee in order to secure tickets. WILL HURD [05:44:51.080 - 05:45:07.920]: So let me ask this question. Did you participate in or overhear any conversations about the potential information collected by Ukraine on the Bidens -- collected by Ukrainians on the Bidens would be used for political gain? GORDON SONDLAND [05:45:07.920 - 05:45:10.880]: Did I personally hear that? No. WILL HURD [05:45:10.880 - 05:45:15.000]: Did you participate in any conversation when this was being discussed? GORDON SONDLAND [05:45:15.000 - 05:45:19.400]: Not that I recall. WILL HURD [05:45:19.400 - 05:45:41.760]: In your statement on page 5, you said Mr. Giuliani's requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for President Zelensky, and you also recounted your conversation with President Trump where he says I want nothing and no quid pro quo. How do you reconcile these two statements? GORDON SONDLAND [05:45:41.760 - 05:46:10.440]: They're hard to reconcile. I -- we were working along Mr. Giuliani's direction for a period of time. We still didn't have a White House meeting. Aid was now held up. There were lots of reasons being given by various people as to why those weren't moving forward. And I finally got exasperated by receiving Ambassador Taylor's latest text, and I just picked up the phone. GORDON SONDLAND [05:46:10.440 - 05:46:16.600]: I got through to the president. I said, what do you want? WILL HURD [05:46:16.600 - 05:46:31.680]: Sure. Are you aware of any specific conversations Mayor Giuliani had with the president between your May 23 conversation and September 11, 2019? GORDON SONDLAND [05:46:31.680 - 05:47:03.320]: I don't recall if -- if Mayor Giuliani, when I was directly talking to him either through a conference call or on a direct call, whether he quoted from the president or said I just talked to the president. Most of the communications, as I said, went through Ambassador Volker initially. So I don't want to opine on what may or may not have been said. WILL HURD [05:47:03.320 - 05:47:24.120]: On page 11 in your testimony you said Mr. Giuliani had been communicating with Ukrainians without our knowledge. I'm assuming you're believing you, Mr. Volker and Ambassador Taylor. Which Ukrainians was Rudy Giuliani communicating with? GORDON SONDLAND [05:47:24.120 - 05:47:34.720]: Well, I was specifically referring to this text that I received from Ambassador Volker where Mr. Giuliani was apparently telling the Ukrainians something that frustrated Ambassador Volker. WILL HURD [05:47:34.720 - 05:47:39.040]: Sure. So who specifically? We -- we know that -- GORDON SONDLAND [05:47:39.040 - 05:47:41.480]: Mr. Lutsenko, the old prosecutor. WILL HURD [05:47:41.480 - 05:47:46.400]: And do you think Mr. Lutsenko has any gravitas within the Zelensky regime? GORDON SONDLAND [05:47:46.400 - 05:47:52.040]: I don't know. He was the old Attorney General and -- WILL HURD [05:47:52.040 - 05:47:56.680]: -- And ultimately got fired in August when the new -- when the new -- GORDON SONDLAND [05:47:56.680 - 05:47:57.800]: -- I think so, yeah -- WILL HURD [05:47:57.800 - 05:48:11.760]: -- Group came in. Okay. So we know Rudy Giuliani has met with Mr. Yermak on the fringes of meetings and I think it was Spain. Do you know any other Ukrainian official within the Zelensky regime that Mayor Giuliani was meeting with? GORDON SONDLAND [05:48:11.760 - 05:48:17.400]: I don't know who Mayor Giuliani was meeting with. WILL HURD [05:48:17.400 - 05:48:30.040]: Had you had any conversations with Ukrainian officials within the Zelensky regime that came to you and said hey, I just got off the phone with Giuliani. What the hell is he talking about? GORDON SONDLAND [05:48:30.040 - 05:48:31.000]: I don't recall. WILL HURD [05:48:31.000 - 05:48:32.360]: Would that be normal? GORDON SONDLAND [05:48:32.360 - 05:48:32.680]: Would -- WILL HURD [05:48:32.680 - 05:49:00.520]: -- In all your -- in all your interactions with ambassadors and heads of states and governments, if there is some element of the U.S. government that they have spoken to, isn't usually a step that they come in, talk to the ambassador, try to clarify what that statement was? Is that -- is that a true characterization of how elements of diplomacy work? GORDON SONDLAND [05:49:00.520 - 05:49:07.760]: I think that's a reasonable possibility. Things -- things work all kinds of different ways these days. WILL HURD [05:49:07.760 - 05:49:21.720]: When you met with President Zelensky after the July 25 phone call, so you met him on July 26, did the investigations or Joe Biden come up in that meeting? GORDON SONDLAND [05:49:21.720 - 05:49:25.160]: I don't remember Joe Biden coming up. WILL HURD [05:49:25.160 - 05:49:31.760]: Was there any frustration expressed to you by the phone call that happened the day before? GORDON SONDLAND [05:49:31.760 - 05:49:37.640]: No. As I testified, everyone said it was a good call. WILL HURD [05:49:37.640 - 05:49:47.920]: Is, in your opinion, your interactions with President Zelensky, is he a straight shooter? Is he a liar -- or is he a liar? GORDON SONDLAND [05:49:47.920 - 05:49:56.400]: He impressed me greatly, and that's why I wanted to get he and President Trump together as soon as possible. WILL HURD [05:49:56.400 - 05:50:00.840]: And so when he makes express statements, you tend to believe them? GORDON SONDLAND [05:50:00.840 - 05:50:04.080]: With my limited interaction with him, he seems a very honorable. WILL HURD [05:50:04.080 - 05:50:08.000]: Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. I hope you make your plane. GORDON SONDLAND [05:50:08.000 - 05:50:10.560]: Thank you, Mr. Hurd WILL HURD [05:50:10.560 - 05:50:11.640]: I yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:50:11.640 - 05:50:12.880]: Mr. Castro. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:50:12.880 - 05:50:16.360]: Thank you, Chairman. Good afternoon, Ambassador. Welcome. GORDON SONDLAND [05:50:16.360 - 05:50:16.360]: Hi. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:50:16.360 - 05:50:43.000]: Others close to President Trump have made it clear that investigations were in fact part of the conditions for U.S. assistance to Ukraine including Rudy Giuliani and Nick Mulvaney, the acting Chief of Staff. So Ambassador Sondland, at a press conference on October 17, acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney discussed his belief that it's entirely appropriate to politicize U.S. foreign policy. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:50:43.000 - 05:50:47.920]: Ambassador, how often did you speak or meet with Mr. Mulvaney? GORDON SONDLAND [05:50:47.920 - 05:50:51.720]: Again, based on my lack of -- of records, I'm going by a bad memory. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:50:51.720 - 05:50:53.080]: Just based on your memory. GORDON SONDLAND [05:50:53.080 - 05:51:04.800]: I -- I only thing I had one formal meeting with Mr. Mulvaney, and it had nothing to do with Ukraine. It had to do with the completely unrelated matter. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:51:04.800 - 05:51:10.760]: So did you have a chance to talk with Mr. Mulvaney about your efforts in the Ukraine? GORDON SONDLAND [05:51:10.760 - 05:51:27.840]: I think most of our communication work through the stream of emails, which others were on, generally, and I may have seen him at the White House casually and said hello and, you know, kept in touch. But we didn't have a back-and-forth. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:51:27.840 - 05:51:40.600]: Sure. Well, let me ask you this. Was it your sense that Mr. Mulvaney had a direct line to President Trump? He must have as acting chief of staff, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [05:51:40.600 - 05:51:42.880]: Of course. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:51:42.880 - 05:51:50.240]: Let us look at what Mr. Mick Mulvaney said during his October 17 press conference. MICK MULVANEY [05:51:50.240 - 05:52:14.680]: [Video] That was -- those were the driving factors. Did he also mentioned to me in the past that the -- the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely. No question about that. But that's it. That's why we hold up the money. Now, there was a report -- QUESTION [05:52:14.680 - 05:52:25.920]: [Video]-- So the demand for an investigation into the Democrats was part of the reason that he was ordered to withhold funding to Ukraine? MICK MULVANEY [05:52:25.920 - 05:52:44.040]: [Video] The -- the look back to what happened in 2016 certainly was part of the thing that he was worried about incorruption with that nation, and that was absolutely appropriate. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:52:44.040 - 05:52:52.880]: He said -- he said that President Trump, in that clip, had an interest in the investigations, did he not? GORDON SONDLAND [05:52:52.880 - 05:52:53.960]: Apparently, yes. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:52:53.960 - 05:53:08.360]: He's the chief of staff. He's somebody that sees the president and has a conversation with the president every single day. When you expect that? GORDON SONDLAND [05:53:08.360 - 05:53:12.680]: I would expect he has a direct line to the president. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:53:12.680 - 05:53:23.720]: Ambassador Sondland, when did you first learn from Mr. Mulvaney that the investigations were holding up the security assistance, if at any time? GORDON SONDLAND [05:53:23.720 - 05:53:26.560]: I don't know that I heard it from Mr. Mulvaney. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:53:26.560 - 05:53:41.880]: Okay. And Ambassador Sondland, I know that you're not a career foreign service officer. Is it your understanding that the U.S. government conditions security assistance on an investigation into a political rival all the time? GORDON SONDLAND [05:53:41.880 - 05:53:46.720]: I've already testified, I didn't think that would be proper. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:53:46.720 - 05:53:52.000]: All right. Well, let us also see what Mr. Mulvaney had to say about that at the same press conference. MICK MULVANEY [05:53:52.000 - 05:54:12.680]: [Video] So, that was -- those were the driving factors. Did he also mention to me in the past the -- the -- the -- the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely, no question about that. But that's it and that's why we held up the money. Now, there was a report JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:54:12.680 - 05:54:58.760]: -- I'll just ago ahead and read it for you, because this thing -- yeah. I'll read it. He says, "And I have news for everybody. Get over it. There's going to be political influence and foreign policy." Knowing what you know now that was intended with Ukraine, do you agree with Mr. Mulvaney that there's just going to be political influence in foreign policy, or that we should all just get over it and allow a president now or later to investigate a political rival and ask a foreign government to do that? JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:54:58.760 - 05:55:00.560]: Do you agree with GORDON SONDLAND [05:55:00.560 - 05:55:03.360]: -- I think there's a JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:55:03.360 - 05:55:05.920]: -- Mr. Mulvaney? GORDON SONDLAND [05:55:05.920 - 05:55:14.640]: I think there's a big difference between political influence and investigating a rival, because politics enters into everything relating to foreign policy. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:55:14.640 - 05:55:21.800]: So -- but you disagree that the present -- you agree that the president should not be allowed to ask for the investigation of a political rival? GORDON SONDLAND [05:55:21.800 - 05:55:30.280]: In the context of what was going on in Ukraine, I believe that the president should not investigate a political rival in return for a quid pro quo. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:55:30.280 - 05:55:48.800]: And part of the way that you figured out that all of the stuff that was going on, that you were part of something that was basically wrong, is because in the July 25th phone call the president himself -- he didn't tell you. We don't know if he told Rudy Giuliani or not because Rudy Giuliani won't come in here. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:55:48.800 - 05:55:57.960]: He said directly to the pres -- to the president of Ukraine that he wanted the Bidens investigated. Wasn't that your reading of the call? GORDON SONDLAND [05:55:57.960 - 05:56:10.440]: First of all, I don't believe that I was a part of something that was wrong because, based on what I knew, I thought we were operating well within the center lane of proper U.S. diplomacy. JOAQUIN CASTRO [05:56:10.440 - 05:56:11.600]: I yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:56:11.600 - 05:56:12.720]: Mr. Ratcliffe? JOHN RATCLIFFE [05:56:12.720 - 05:56:24.360]: Chairman, thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a statement issued this morning from the office of the vice president by Chief of Staff Mark Short. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:56:24.360 - 05:56:26.720]: Without objection. JOHN RATCLIFFE [05:56:26.720 - 05:56:47.400]: Ambassador Sondland, I will be brief. In anticipation of Mr. Holmes's testimony tomorrow about this July 26th phone call that -- that he overheard at a café in Kiev that you had with President Trump, he overheard that even though the call was not on speakerphone, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [05:56:47.400 - 05:56:52.200]: I don't believe so. JOHN RATCLIFFE [05:56:52.200 - 05:56:55.720]: All right. Was in an open-air café? GORDON SONDLAND [05:56:55.720 - 05:56:57.920]: It was outdoors. JOHN RATCLIFFE [05:56:57.920 - 05:57:26.000]: One of the points that my Democratic colleagues keep making is that David Holmes's prior testimony, which he'll apparently confirm tomorrow, is that President Trump said that he doesn't give a blank about Ukraine. You heard that earlier? GORDON SONDLAND [05:57:26.000 - 05:57:41.040]: That was not on the phone call. I don't think he testified that was on the phone call. I think he was testifying that I summarized the phone call, and I don't recall saying that. JOHN RATCLIFFE [05:57:41.040 - 05:57:43.720]: And you have no recollection of that? GORDON SONDLAND [05:57:43.720 - 05:57:45.040]: I don't. JOHN RATCLIFFE [05:57:45.040 - 05:57:52.440]: Yeah. Even if it was true, there is nothing wrong with that, to have an opinion about. GORDON SONDLAND [05:57:52.440 - 05:57:59.520]: He can have whatever opinion he wants about Ukraine. JOHN RATCLIFFE [05:57:59.520 - 05:58:22.280]: It's all part of the narrative that President Trump is a bad guy, that he doesn't care about the Ukrainians. But it seems to me, Ambassador Sondland, that nothing says you care more about the Ukrainians than sending Javelin antitank missiles. Would you agree with me? GORDON SONDLAND [05:58:22.280 - 05:58:30.520]: I agree that sending Javelin antitank missiles is something the Ukraine wanted and needed. JOHN RATCLIFFE [05:58:30.520 - 05:58:39.160]: Certainly those work a lot better in stopping Russian tanks than the blankets that were sent by the Obama administration. GORDON SONDLAND [05:58:39.160 - 05:58:42.920]: Your point is taken. JOHN RATCLIFFE [05:58:42.920 - 05:58:45.680]: I'll yield back. GORDON SONDLAND [05:58:45.680 - 05:58:47.760]: Thank you. ADAM B. SCHIFF [05:58:47.760 - 05:58:48.840]: Mr. Heck? DENNY HECK [05:58:48.840 - 05:59:05.600]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ambassador, thank you for your stamina, sir. I have a few quick, fairly easy questions. You would agree, would you not, sir, that foreign interference in our elections is or can be a threat to our democracy? GORDON SONDLAND [05:59:05.600 - 05:59:08.240]: Under certain conditions, yes. DENNY HECK [05:59:08.240 - 05:59:13.240]: Do you -- there are conditions under which their interference is not a threat? GORDON SONDLAND [05:59:13.240 - 05:59:16.880]: I'm sorry. Did you say foreign interference? DENNY HECK [05:59:16.880 - 05:59:17.560]: Yes. GORDON SONDLAND [05:59:17.560 - 05:59:19.520]: Always. Sorry. DENNY HECK [05:59:19.520 - 05:59:29.040]: And you also agree that identifying and preventing that interference should be a priority of the federal government? GORDON SONDLAND [05:59:29.040 - 05:59:30.800]: It should be one of its priorities. DENNY HECK [05:59:30.800 - 05:59:53.160]: And when you were assisting President Trump in his effort to obtain those investigations, did you would all realize that those investigations could in fact impact the 2020 election? GORDON SONDLAND [05:59:53.160 - 05:59:53.760]: No. DENNY HECK [05:59:53.760 - 06:00:08.280]: Do you believe, sir, that it is appropriate -- ever appropriate to invite, press, bribe, or -- or course foreign interference in our elections? GORDON SONDLAND [06:00:08.280 - 06:00:08.520]: No. DENNY HECK [06:00:08.520 - 06:00:39.400]: Thank you. I want to refer to something that you said in your opening statement. As I previously testified, had I known of all of Mr. Giuliani's dealings or if his associations with individuals now under criminal indictment, I would not have acquiesced to his participation. It's hard to read that without believing that you thought that what he was doing was either wrong or that he was not reputable. DENNY HECK [06:00:39.400 - 06:00:40.760]: Fair? GORDON SONDLAND [06:00:40.760 - 06:00:43.880]: Well, with 20/20 hindsight, that's fair. DENNY HECK [06:00:43.880 - 06:01:12.480]: Yes. You have testified here today that you also came to believe that the request for investigations into Burisma was in fact a request to investigate the Bidens, both the former vice president and Hunter. And indeed, the transcript of the July 25th call makes specific reference to that, including Hunter Biden. DENNY HECK [06:01:12.480 - 06:01:20.640]: And today, the -- even the ranking member said we could clear all this up if we could have Hunter Biden. And I have a simple question. What Ukrainian law did Hunter Biden violate? GORDON SONDLAND [06:01:20.640 - 06:01:21.480]: I'm not aware. DENNY HECK [06:01:21.480 - 06:01:24.280]: What evidence is there that he may have violated any Ukrainian law? GORDON SONDLAND [06:01:24.280 - 06:01:24.720]: I'm not aware. DENNY HECK [06:01:24.720 - 06:01:53.160]: That's because there is none, sir. Finally, also from your opening statement, you said as you know, I have already provided 10 hours of deposition testimony. I did so despite directives from the White House and the State Department that I refuse to appear as many others have done. I agreed to testify because I respect the gravity of the moment, and I believe I have an obligation to account fully for my role in these events. DENNY HECK [06:01:53.160 - 06:01:57.280]: Did by obligation you mean simply your legal obligation, or did you mean something bigger? GORDON SONDLAND [06:01:57.280 - 06:01:59.440]: Well, both my legal obligation and my moral obligation. DENNY HECK [06:01:59.440 - 06:02:38.120]: Your moral obligation. I actually want to present an alternative theory. Your family came here escaping the Holocaust via Uruguay, and your parents moved [Inaudible] and later you here, where frankly you've been an American success story. Through dint of hard work and innovation, a good idea, a knack to hire the right people and some luck, you've built a considerable successful business, one that I know for a fact would make your parents proud. DENNY HECK [06:02:38.120 - 06:02:59.080]: They came here because they knew that it was here that they could have freedom that they had not enjoyed, security that they had not enjoyed, an opportunity that they had not enjoyed. And no doubt on some level you're grateful and it's created a sense of patriotism in you. Is that fair to say? GORDON SONDLAND [06:02:59.080 - 06:02:59.760]: Very fair. DENNY HECK [06:02:59.760 - 06:03:28.040]: Why then, sir, with your courage to come before us does that same standard not apply to Mr. Mulvaney, Mr. Duffy, Mr. Pompeo, Mr. Bolton, Mr. Volker, Mr. Giuliani? Why shouldn't those same sentiments beat within their hearts to do their patriotic duty and do what you have done, sir? Indeed, why doesn't that same standard applied to the president of the United States? GORDON SONDLAND [06:03:28.040 - 06:03:29.160]: I wish I could answer. DENNY HECK [06:03:29.160 - 06:03:46.240]: I suspect you can't because there is no good answer. But I do appreciate your willingness to come here today. With that I yield back, Mr. Chairman. GORDON SONDLAND [06:03:46.240 - 06:03:50.720]: Thank you, Congressman. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:03:50.720 - 06:03:53.240]: Mr. Jordan? JIM JORDAN [06:03:53.240 - 06:04:08.240]: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I asked unanimous consent to enter into the record a statement from chief of staff Mick Mulvaney. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:04:08.240 - 06:04:20.040]: Without objection. We haven't seen all of these statements but I presume they are accurate and no objection. JIM JORDAN [06:04:20.040 - 06:04:30.280]: Thank you. Ambassador President Trump is not a big fan of foreign aid is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:04:30.280 - 06:04:40.320]: I don't know if that's a fair characterization. I think he is careful. JIM JORDAN [06:04:40.320 - 06:05:02.440]: He has expressed concerns about foreign aid going to certain countries. Okay, fair enough. And he knew Ukraine was corrupt, is that right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:05:02.440 - 06:05:04.800]: He believed Ukraine was corrupt. JIM JORDAN [06:05:04.800 - 06:05:07.920]: Yeah, and he wanted Europe to do more? GORDON SONDLAND [06:05:07.920 - 06:05:09.560]: Definitely. JIM JORDAN [06:05:09.560 - 06:06:06.640]: Definitely wanted Europe to do more and the President had a believe that Ukrainian government officials, some senior Ukrainian government officials supported his opponent in 2016, won't go into all of the details but I think of the one a member of Parliament who said that the majority of Ukrainian politicians want Hillary Clinton to win so we had that belief as well and obviously he understood what -- what was happening. JIM JORDAN [06:06:06.640 - 06:06:12.480]: We've got a brand-new guy in Ukraine, this Zelensky guy wins, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:06:12.480 - 06:06:12.880]: Right. JIM JORDAN [06:06:12.880 - 06:07:14.560]: And his party takes over and President Trump wants to say with all of these other things that are of concern to him he wants to see if this new guy is actually is a like to say the real deal, a real reformer and actually going to deal with the corruption problem. So aid gets held up for 55 days, gets held up on June 18, or excuse me July 18 and then is released on September 11. But it seems to me more important than the 55 day pause is the 14 days when Ukraine realized aid was held up on the 29th, we have now had you testified to that and to witnesses yesterday testified to that, the Politico article. JIM JORDAN [06:07:14.560 - 06:08:09.400]: So aid gets held up on August -- excuse me Ukraine learns aid is held on August 29 and then of course released on -- released on September 11. In those 14 days there are three important meetings with senior government officials and President Zelensky. There say August 29 meeting between Ambassador Bolton and President Zelensky, there is the meeting September 1 that you are a part of, Vice President Pence meets with President Zelensky and then there's the meeting on September 5, where U.S. Senators Murphy and Johnson meet with President Zelensky. JIM JORDAN [06:08:09.400 - 06:08:51.800]: None of those meetings, none of those meetings did in the linkage to security assistance dollars and an announcement or a start of any investigation ever come up? None of them. But it seems to me the one that is the most important is probably the one we have talked least about and that is the September 5 meeting because that is actually a meeting where there is no -- Maxwell, it is much more congressional focused than White House focused. JIM JORDAN [06:08:51.800 - 06:09:21.640]: This is the meeting where Senators Murphy, Senators Murphy and Johnson, bipartisan meet with President Zelensky and what is interesting is what both senators in the last two days have given us letters recounting what happened in that meeting. Senator Murphy said I broached the topic of pressure on Zelensky from Rudy Giuliani and the presidents other emissaries to launch an investigation into trumps political rival. JIM JORDAN [06:09:21.640 - 06:10:23.960]: Murphy brought it up. He brought -- you have got to Senators who both strong supporters of money going to Ukraine, these guys are all for it and Senator Murphy the Democrat even brings up the issue everyone's been talking about, it seems to me if ever there was going to be a time where the President of Ukraine says guys, you don't know what I'm dealing with, I'm getting pressure from the President of the United States, he wants me to do this, I've got to make -- it seems if ever there was a time that the President of Ukraine, the new guy who now knows the aid has been on hold if ever there was a time to bring it up that would have been the time but guess what? JIM JORDAN [06:10:23.960 - 06:11:02.160]: At no time centered Johnson tells us, at no time during this meeting or on any other meeting on this trip was there any mention by Zelensky or any other Ukrainian that they were feeling pressure to do anything in return for military aid, not even Senator Johnson says not even after Murphy warned them about getting involved in the election. JIM JORDAN [06:11:02.160 - 06:11:49.680]: So Murphy gave this big deal on Giuliani and nothing, nothing. Guess what Murphy also said? I do not dispute any of Senator Johnson's factual -- factual representations regarding the meeting. If ever it was going to happen September 5 was the day, no one from the White House there, not Ambassador Bolton, not vice president, no one there but even then it didn't happen and we've got all kind of other meetings when it didn't happen and of course as you testified earlier there was never an announcement. JIM JORDAN [06:11:49.680 - 06:12:29.360]: You said there were three quid pro quos but there weren't because there was never an announcement. I mean this is as clear as it gets that these guys want to keep stirring it up based on no direct evidence whatsoever and the best direct evidence we have is actually what the President told you. I want nothing, there is no quid pro quo, I want Zelensky to do exactly what he campaigned on and when that became clear to us guess what? JIM JORDAN [06:12:29.360 - 06:12:53.440]: They got the money, they got the money. God bless America it all worked out, right? This is crazy what we are going through because the facts are so darn clear. I yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:12:53.440 - 06:12:54.640]: Mr. Welch? PETER WELCH [06:12:54.640 - 06:13:20.480]: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Ambassador I am impressed with your career, been very successful in business. I am impressed with your commitment to public service and I was very impressed with your forthright statement so thank you for that. You said it was the highest honor for you to have this opportunity to have this appointment to serve as ambassador to the EU, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:13:20.480 - 06:13:21.280]: Correct. PETER WELCH [06:13:21.280 - 06:13:35.040]: And you quickly became very involved in the Ukraine policy and that policy has been described by you and others was really very clear help Ukraine find internal corruption and resist external aggression, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:13:35.040 - 06:13:35.680]: Correct. PETER WELCH [06:13:35.680 - 06:13:51.360]: And this Congress I think with the support of everybody up here, Republicans and Democrats and in fact with a significant amount of Republican leadership authorize the release of military aid, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:13:51.360 - 06:13:52.040]: Right. PETER WELCH [06:13:52.040 - 06:14:11.160]: And you and others who are working with you believed it was very important to the new government, President Zelensky to have that White House meeting to show our support and say may signal to Russia, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:14:11.160 - 06:14:13.000]: That is correct. PETER WELCH [06:14:13.000 - 06:14:31.400]: And from hearing you and from hearing our other witnesses Ambassador Yovanovitch, Ambassador Volker, Ambassador Taylor there was a concerted team effort on your part to get that meeting and release that a, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:14:31.400 - 06:14:41.960]: Well, there was always a concerted effort on my part to get the meeting. That was my -- that was my singular narrow focus was to get the meeting. PETER WELCH [06:14:41.960 - 06:14:46.760]: Right, and that was shared by all of the colleagues I just mentioned, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:14:46.760 - 06:14:47.760]: Yes. PETER WELCH [06:14:47.760 - 06:15:05.680]: All right. And incredibly urgent Ambassador Taylor described going to the front where Ukrainians were dying at the [Inaudible], 14,000 had died and it was an existential issue for them that they get the aid and you were where oh well of that and shared I am sure Ambassador Taylor's concern. Is that correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:15:05.680 - 06:15:06.520]: I did. PETER WELCH [06:15:06.520 - 06:15:21.920]: And -- in your forthright testimony you -- you have testified and it is really with the benefit of hindsight because you couldn't piece it all together. You know Giuliani new in real time what you were trying to figure out as you went along. Is that a fair statement? GORDON SONDLAND [06:15:21.920 - 06:15:22.560]: I think so. PETER WELCH [06:15:22.560 - 06:15:30.920]: One, you testified that you acted on the orders of the present, that was you acting out his orders, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:15:30.920 - 06:15:31.480]: Correct. PETER WELCH [06:15:31.480 - 06:15:38.160]: And use said quite explicitly there was a quid pro quo. GORDON SONDLAND [06:15:38.160 - 06:15:42.200]: Relating to the meeting and the Burisma DNC. PETER WELCH [06:15:42.200 - 06:15:49.400]: That is exactly right. No meaning, no meeting unless there's an investigation, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:15:49.400 - 06:15:54.120]: That is what we were told by Mr. Giuliani. PETER WELCH [06:15:54.120 - 06:15:56.240]: All right. And Mr. Giuliani you GORDON SONDLAND [06:15:56.240 - 06:15:59.840]: Way, no meeting unless there was an announcement of an investigation. PETER WELCH [06:15:59.840 - 06:16:13.360]: Okay, thank you. And I ask by the way did the efforts of Mr. Giuliani authorized by the President impede the efforts that you and others were making to try to advance what you thought was the Ukraine policy? GORDON SONDLAND [06:16:13.360 - 06:16:15.680]: Nodding initially. We were just working PETER WELCH [06:16:15.680 - 06:16:16.600]: Ultimately? GORDON SONDLAND [06:16:16.600 - 06:16:19.240]: Well, ultimately nothing happened. PETER WELCH [06:16:19.240 - 06:16:26.640]: Right, and Giuliani was the one who was absolutely insistent on the meeting, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:16:26.640 - 06:16:29.600]: Giuliani was insistent on the? PETER WELCH [06:16:29.600 - 06:16:33.480]: In the investigation? GORDON SONDLAND [06:16:33.480 - 06:16:34.480]: Investigation, yeah. PETER WELCH [06:16:34.480 - 06:16:50.040]: Now I ask this of Ambassador Taylor or Ambassador Volker if the mayor of Portland said to the police chief I'm not going to authorize your budget unless you agree to do an investigation into my political opponent would that be wrong? GORDON SONDLAND [06:16:50.040 - 06:16:52.120]: Of course. PETER WELCH [06:16:52.120 - 06:16:57.880]: And likewise if it were the governor of the state of Oregon doing the same thing, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:16:57.880 - 06:16:58.520]: Correct. PETER WELCH [06:16:58.520 - 06:17:05.440]: And would that same rule apply to the President of the United States? GORDON SONDLAND [06:17:05.440 - 06:17:07.960]: To investigate a political opponent? PETER WELCH [06:17:07.960 - 06:17:09.240]: That is great. GORDON SONDLAND [06:17:09.240 - 06:17:12.200]: Yes. PETER WELCH [06:17:12.200 - 06:17:41.200]: So that is the question here. The President in his phone call he asked President Zelensky who desperately needed the release of that aid, who desperately needed the White House meeting to do an investigation and it was focused on the Biden's and Hunter Biden and Burisma in crowd strike. I mean you don't have to answer that. PETER WELCH [06:17:41.200 - 06:18:07.720]: The presidents word speak for themselves. Do you feel as a person who went into public service to serve who have a team of people that shared your desire to help Ukraine, do you feel in any way betrayed by the double dealing of the President? Is a real question. GORDON SONDLAND [06:18:07.720 - 06:18:10.600]: I don't want to characterize PETER WELCH [06:18:10.600 - 06:18:28.480]: Don't -- you don't have to characterize him. I'm just -- you know what, we all if we get a chance to do something useful we like to do it and there's no better joy than when you are doing it with other people. GORDON SONDLAND [06:18:28.480 - 06:19:04.440]: And Mr. Welch let me answer your question this way. I would have preferred that and I'm sure everyone would have preferred that the President simply met with Mr. Zelensky right away. Our assessment of Mr. Zelensky was that he and the President would get on famously. He was smart, he was funny, he was charming, he was the kind of person the President would like and once the two of them got together we thought the chemistry would take over and good things would happen between the U.S. and Ukraine relationship. GORDON SONDLAND [06:19:04.440 - 06:19:09.320]: That is why we were pushing for a quick unconditional meeting. PETER WELCH [06:19:09.320 - 06:19:11.800]: So it is unfortunate that he was unwilling to meet without GORDON SONDLAND [06:19:11.800 - 06:19:13.360]: And it didn't happen. PETER WELCH [06:19:13.360 - 06:19:18.160]: -- the commitment on the investigation. Thank you, Ambassador. GORDON SONDLAND [06:19:18.160 - 06:19:19.360]: Thank you. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:19:19.360 - 06:19:21.200]: Mr. Maloney? SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:19:21.200 - 06:19:36.240]: Mr. Ambassador, let's pick up right there. You would have preferred if they just had the meeting with the president of Ukraine without these conditions. Is that what you're saying? GORDON SONDLAND [06:19:36.240 - 06:19:36.920]: Yes. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:19:36.920 - 06:19:43.360]: But there were these conditions and it involved an investigation, right? You've said that many times. GORDON SONDLAND [06:19:43.360 - 06:19:50.640]: Well, remember, the initial invitation that the president sent to President Zelensky SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:19:50.640 - 06:19:51.400]: -- I understand GORDON SONDLAND [06:19:51.400 - 06:19:52.760]: -- Had no conditions. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:19:52.760 - 06:20:12.960]: But that -- that didn't last very long, did it? And then there were conditions. We -- this is not controversial at this point, I don't believe, sir. There were conditions that the president wanted investigations, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:20:12.960 - 06:20:14.320]: Right. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:20:14.320 - 06:20:18.160]: And you thought they were Burisma and the 2016 elections. GORDON SONDLAND [06:20:18.160 - 06:20:18.720]: Correct. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:20:18.720 - 06:20:24.520]: We now know, of course, that Burisma means Bidens, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:20:24.520 - 06:20:26.920]: Today, we do. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:20:26.920 - 06:20:39.120]: And we can probably come up from today until the end of time set aside any confusion that when somebody is asking for an investigation of Burisma over the summer, what they really meant was Biden, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:20:39.120 - 06:20:45.040]: With 2020 hindsight, yes. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:20:45.040 - 06:21:09.040]: Right, with hindsight. And of course, on the day after the president's famous call, you're having lunch with David Holmes, we covered this, and he overhears your conversation and I say -- I know you said you have no reason to dispute what Mr. Holmes said, and I think you said you wouldn't have any reason to think he didn't speak about investigations with the president. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:21:09.040 - 06:21:13.680]: The president raised investigations with you, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:21:13.680 - 06:21:15.440]: Correct. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:21:15.440 - 06:21:16.760]: On the 26? GORDON SONDLAND [06:21:16.760 - 06:21:17.200]: Correct. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:21:17.200 - 06:21:37.200]: And we now know, of course, that was about the Bidens and Burisma and 2016, right? I mean, I know you didn't know it at the time, that's your testimony, but we now know that, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:21:37.200 - 06:21:40.640]: I understood it to mean Burisma. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:21:40.640 - 06:21:47.440]: Mr. Holmes says you said Biden's right after that, but I know you don't recall that, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:21:47.440 - 06:21:48.040]: That's correct. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:21:48.040 - 06:21:48.600]: do you dispute it? GORDON SONDLAND [06:21:48.600 - 06:21:49.280]: I do. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:21:49.280 - 06:22:01.080]: Okay, but you don't recall it. But we know that that's what the president meant, right? And you do -- you do confirm that he wanted to talk about investigations with you? GORDON SONDLAND [06:22:01.080 - 06:22:05.720]: Well now, with the complete picture SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:22:05.720 - 06:22:07.960]: -- I understand GORDON SONDLAND [06:22:07.960 - 06:22:14.000]: -- Of what he said 24 hours before, yes, that makes sense. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:22:14.000 - 06:22:22.640]: I understand. And you've said it's wrong to investigate political opponents. We've agreed on that today, haven't we, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [06:22:22.640 - 06:22:24.320]: Yes. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:22:24.320 - 06:22:38.920]: And yet, of course, that's what we know the president was asking for. Let me ask you something. Who would have benefitted from an investigation of the president's political opponents? GORDON SONDLAND [06:22:38.920 - 06:22:45.320]: I don't want to characterize who would have and who would not have. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:22:45.320 - 06:22:51.800]: I know you don't want to, sir. That's my question. Would you answer it for me? GORDON SONDLAND [06:22:51.800 - 06:22:53.280]: Restate your question. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:22:53.280 - 06:23:03.320]: Who would benefit from an investigation of the president's political opponent? GORDON SONDLAND [06:23:03.320 - 06:23:12.080]: Well, presumably, that -- the person who asked for the investigation. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:23:12.080 - 06:23:14.800]: Who is that? GORDON SONDLAND [06:23:14.800 - 06:23:22.720]: If the president asked for the investigation, it would be he. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:23:22.720 - 06:23:50.000]: Well, it's not a hypothetical, is it, sir? We just went around this track, didn't we? The president asked you about investigations. He was talking about the Bidens. When he -- when he asked you about the Biden investigation, who was he seeking to benefit? GORDON SONDLAND [06:23:50.000 - 06:23:57.200]: He did not ask me about the Biden investigation. I've said that SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:23:57.200 - 06:24:11.960]: -- When he asked you about investigations -- About 19 times, Mr. Maloney SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:24:11.960 - 06:24:39.240]: -- Sir -- Sir, we just went through this. When he asked you about investigations, which we all agreed now means the Bidens, we just did this about 30 seconds ago, where at -- it's pretty simple question, isn't it? I guess I'm having trouble why you can't just say GORDON SONDLAND [06:24:39.240 - 06:24:43.480]: -- When he asked about investigations, I assumed he meant SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:24:43.480 - 06:24:45.000]: -- I know what you assumed GORDON SONDLAND [06:24:45.000 - 06:24:47.840]: -- The company, Burisma SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:24:47.840 - 06:24:51.240]: -- But who would benefit from an investigation of the Bidens? GORDON SONDLAND [06:24:51.240 - 06:24:53.080]: They are two different questions. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:24:53.080 - 06:24:58.640]: I'm just asking you one. Who would benefit from an investigation of the Bidens? GORDON SONDLAND [06:24:58.640 - 06:25:02.120]: I assume President Trump would benefit. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:25:02.120 - 06:25:03.880]: There we have it. See? SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:25:03.880 - 06:25:12.840]: It didn't hurt a bit, did it? It didn't hurt a bit. But let me ask you something GORDON SONDLAND [06:25:12.840 - 06:25:14.000]: Mr. Maloney? SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:25:14.000 - 06:25:15.680]: Hold on, sir GORDON SONDLAND [06:25:15.680 - 06:25:24.160]: Excuse me, I've been very forthright and I really resent what you're trying to do. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:25:24.160 - 06:25:46.640]: Fair enough. You've been very forthright. This is your third try to do so, sir. It didn't work so well the first time, did it? We had a little declaration, and after. Your member that? And now we're here a third time and we've got a doozy of a statement from you this morning. There's a whole bunch of stuff you don't recall. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:25:46.640 - 06:26:16.800]: So all due respect, sir? We appreciate your candor, but let's be really clear on what it took to get it out of you. So my question is when the president's putting pressure on the Ukrainians, withholding a meeting to get this investigation that you and I agree would benefit him politically, what kind of -- what kind of pressure does that but that Ukrainians in, sir? GORDON SONDLAND [06:26:16.800 - 06:26:18.560]: A terrible position. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:26:18.560 - 06:26:21.640]: A terrible position. Why? GORDON SONDLAND [06:26:21.640 - 06:26:24.360]: Why does it put them in a terrible position? SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:26:24.360 - 06:26:25.000]: Why? GORDON SONDLAND [06:26:25.000 - 06:26:38.240]: Well, obviously, they're not receiving ultimately what they thought was coming to them and they are put in a -- in a position that jeopardizes their security. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:26:38.240 - 06:27:02.240]: A position that jeopardizes their security, and there are being asked to do an investigation to help their security, essentially, that would benefit the president politically. In other words, you might say they are being asked to give him a personal benefit in exchange for an official act. Is that a fair summary.? GORDON SONDLAND [06:27:02.240 - 06:27:05.760]: In your hypothetical, that's correct. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:27:05.760 - 06:27:16.280]: It's not hypothetical, sir. This is real life. Were they asked to give him a personal benefit in exchange GORDON SONDLAND [06:27:16.280 - 06:27:17.000]: -- By whom SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:27:17.000 - 06:27:17.600]: -- For an official act? GORDON SONDLAND [06:27:17.600 - 06:27:23.560]: Sir, I am not going to go around in circles with you. Please be clear about what you're asking me. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY [06:27:23.560 - 06:27:28.440]: My time is expired, sir. Thank you for your appearance. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:27:28.440 - 06:27:30.760]: Ms. Demings. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:27:30.760 - 06:27:37.000]: Good afternoon, Ambassador. It's good to see you again. GORDON SONDLAND [06:27:37.000 - 06:27:37.720]: Thank you. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:27:37.720 - 06:27:59.720]: Do you have any knowledge of a possible meeting on or around May 7 involving then President elect Zelensky and several of his aides to discuss how to handle pressure from President Trump and Mr. Giuliani about investigating the Bidens? GORDON SONDLAND [06:27:59.720 - 06:28:01.960]: I don't recall such a meeting. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:28:01.960 - 06:28:07.640]: You don't recall such a meeting? You don't recall hearing anything about such a meeting GORDON SONDLAND [06:28:07.640 - 06:28:08.840]: -- Again VAL B. DEMINGS [06:28:08.840 - 06:28:13.040]: -- If you don't have firsthand knowledge GORDON SONDLAND [06:28:13.040 - 06:28:25.560]: -- If I don't -- well, if I don't have -- if I don't have records, schedules, I don't -- right now, I don't recall anything about such a meeting. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:28:25.560 - 06:28:28.080]: Ambassador, in the May GORDON SONDLAND [06:28:28.080 - 06:28:30.440]: -- Is this at meeting among the Ukrainians? VAL B. DEMINGS [06:28:30.440 - 06:28:50.280]: It's a meeting among the Ukrainians involving then President-elect Zelensky. So this would have been early on in his presidency with several aides to discuss how to handle pressure from President Trump and Mr. Giuliani about investigating the Bidens. GORDON SONDLAND [06:28:50.280 - 06:28:54.080]: Yeah, I don't recall such a meeting. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:28:54.080 - 06:29:37.120]: You don't remember that. Ambassador, in the May, I believe it was the May 23 meeting, you talked about how the president categorized Ukraine. What you thought about Ukraine. I thought believe that meeting was on May 23. Did you ever hear President Zelensky relay any concerns about you about how he felt about how the United States viewed him, whether he was being taken seriously or any concerns about being used as a tool for a political reasons? GORDON SONDLAND [06:29:37.120 - 06:30:05.880]: Well, I saw that in an email from Ambassador Taylor. We obviously tried to relate to President Zelensky the glass half full version of how the United States felt about Ukraine, not the glass half empty version, which is we're here for you, we support you, and we are trying very hard to get you the meeting with President Trump. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:30:05.880 - 06:30:23.840]: So after hearing that from Ambassador Taylor, you relayed -- you tried to reassure President Zelensky that America was truly on their side. Is that what you're saying? GORDON SONDLAND [06:30:23.840 - 06:30:39.720]: I think we've been trying to assure President Zelensky throughout his entire -- his entire term as a president. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:30:39.720 - 06:31:38.040]: Ambassador, I know you said you don't quite remember exactly when you came to that realization that Burisma actually meant Bidens, but back on May 6 when asked about eight news report about the role of former Vice President's son on Burisma, President Trump told Fox News that it was, and I quote, "A major scandal, major problem." On May 9, the New York Times reported that Rudy Giuliani planned to travel to Ukraine and "Shortly to meet with President Zelensky to urge him to pursue the 2016 election and the involvement of Hunter Biden and Burisma." Are you saying that you do not -- did not realize at that time, we're talking about on May 9 of this year, that Mr. Giuliani wanted to urge President Zelensky to pursue the 2016 election and the involvement of Hunter Biden of Burisma? GORDON SONDLAND [06:31:38.040 - 06:31:39.840]: I do now, but I did not then. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:31:39.840 - 06:32:02.120]: You did not know that even -- and I believe you said earlier that you did not pay any attention or much attention at all to any of the numerous news reports of the person you were directed by the president to work with when he was on television over and over and over again talking about Hunter Biden and Burisma? GORDON SONDLAND [06:32:02.120 - 06:32:04.200]: No, I did not. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:32:04.200 - 06:32:33.600]: On September 9, in a text from ambassador Taylor, he said something to the effect of our renouncing that aid is tied to investigations? And I believe you text back, "Call me." Then you had a conversation with President Trump and president Trump said something to the effect that there is no quid pro quo. Do you know what prompted him to say that? VAL B. DEMINGS [06:32:33.600 - 06:32:47.600]: You asked him what do you want and he goes directly to there is no quid pro quo, as opposed to going directly to the list of things that he wanted. What prompted him to use that term? GORDON SONDLAND [06:32:47.600 - 06:32:48.120]: I have no clue. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:32:48.120 - 06:32:56.360]: Did you discuss your conversation or your text from Ambassador Taylor with resident Trump before he made that statement? GORDON SONDLAND [06:32:56.360 - 06:33:03.760]: I did not. I asked a very open ended question, what do you want from Ukraine. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:33:03.760 - 06:33:27.640]: And you remember that directly, although there are several other conversations that you cannot recall because you don't have your notes or your documents or your emails or other information, but you remember that call specifically exactly what the president said to you in response to your question about what do you want. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:33:27.640 - 06:33:28.800]: Why is that? GORDON SONDLAND [06:33:28.800 - 06:33:33.600]: I remember the first girl I kissed. I mean, I remember certain things. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:33:33.600 - 06:33:37.400]: You kissed the -- well, I won't say that. GORDON SONDLAND [06:33:37.400 - 06:33:44.640]: I remembered that conversation because, as I said, it was a pretty intense short conversation. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:33:44.640 - 06:34:05.800]: And tell me again about the conversation you had at the restaurant that was overheard by Mr. Holmes, because that was a conversation with the president. Tell me about that conversation with the president. What was said on the phone? GORDON SONDLAND [06:34:05.800 - 06:34:45.880]: Again, I don't remember the specifics. I'm -- I'm being guided by what Mr. Holmes testified to. I said I didn't dispute the basic, you know, subject of the conversation. As I said, we were talking primarily about ASAP Rocky. That was a completely unrelated matter, and I think the president may have brought up, you know, how did it go with Zelensky or is he going to the investigations, which we've been talking about for -- for weeks. GORDON SONDLAND [06:34:45.880 - 06:34:54.480]: And then, as I said, I dispute the -- Mr. -- is it Mr. Holmes' characterization of what I said afterwards. VAL B. DEMINGS [06:34:54.480 - 06:35:00.600]: Thank you, Ambassador. And Mr. Chair, yield back. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:35:00.600 - 06:35:02.840]: Mr. Krishnamoorthi? RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:35:02.840 - 06:35:33.320]: Good afternoon, Ambassador. I'm just going to pick up on that September 9th conversation, in which the president allegedly said I want nothing. I don't want a quid pro quo. I presume that on this September 9th conversation the president did not mention that that was the same day that we launched a congressional investigation into whether there was a quid pro quo. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:35:33.320 - 06:35:35.720]: Did he say that to you? GORDON SONDLAND [06:35:35.720 - 06:35:45.440]: Again, I know all of that today. But he did not -- we didn't have time to talk about things like that. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:35:45.440 - 06:35:56.400]: And I presume he also didn't mention the whistleblower complaint that also alleges there was a quid pro quo that day. GORDON SONDLAND [06:35:56.400 - 06:35:56.680]: He did not. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:35:56.680 - 06:36:10.200]: Okay. So, you can't rule out the possibility that the reason why he started talking that way on that day is because of the congressional investigation. GORDON SONDLAND [06:36:10.200 - 06:36:14.520]: I can't roll that out. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:36:14.520 - 06:36:24.000]: You know, the inauguration of President Zelensky was on May 20th, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:36:24.000 - 06:36:26.760]: Correct. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:36:26.760 - 06:36:36.520]: As you stated, you attended this inauguration with Senator Johnson, Secretary Perry, Lieutenant Colonel Vindman and others, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:36:36.520 - 06:36:37.680]: Correct. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:36:37.680 - 06:36:47.960]: But Vice President Pence was supposed to originally attend that, correct? Correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:36:47.960 - 06:36:49.320]: I believe so. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:36:49.320 - 06:37:16.600]: We learn from Jennifer Williams, a witness who testified, that it was at the president's direction on May 13th that the vice president not attend. She said that according to the vice president's chief of staff, the president determined that the vice president would not go. Do you know why the vice president did not attend the inauguration? GORDON SONDLAND [06:37:16.600 - 06:37:17.560]: No clue. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:37:17.560 - 06:37:31.560]: I want to point to a -- a New York Times article from last week that says that Lev Parnas's attorney -- you've heard of this gentleman, Lev Parnas, an associate of Rudy Giuliani's? GORDON SONDLAND [06:37:31.560 - 06:37:36.280]: Only what I've read very recently. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:37:36.280 - 06:37:39.720]: He's recently indicted. GORDON SONDLAND [06:37:39.720 - 06:37:40.480]: Yeah. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:37:40.480 - 06:38:08.680]: Mr. Parnas told representative of -- of the incoming government, the Zelensky government, that it had to announce an investigation into Trump's political rival, Joseph R. Biden, and his son or else Vice President Mike Pence would not attend the swearing-in of the new president and the United States would freeze aid. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:38:08.680 - 06:38:20.840]: Did the vice president not attend possibly because this investigation had not yet been initiated by the Zelensky government? GORDON SONDLAND [06:38:20.840 - 06:38:22.560]: I have no idea. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:38:22.560 - 06:38:25.160]: You can't rule it out, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:38:25.160 - 06:38:27.040]: Again, I have no idea. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:38:27.040 - 06:38:31.360]: You have no basis for ruling it out, however, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:38:31.360 - 06:38:36.920]: All I know is that the leader of the delegation was Secretary Perry, who invited me along. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:38:36.920 - 06:39:05.560]: Interestingly, Ambassador Sondland, since you came forward in these proceedings, others in the administration have tried to distance themselves from you. You know, on October 14th, Rudy Giuliani told the Washington Post that Sondland "seemed to be in charge" of the effort to get Ukrainian officials to publish -- or to publicly announce investigations. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:39:05.560 - 06:39:08.400]: Of course, that's false, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:39:08.400 - 06:39:23.760]: If I had been in charge, I would've asked President Trump to have the meeting without preconditions and the meeting would've occurred a long time ago. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:39:23.760 - 06:39:38.440]: That's exactly right. The president is the one that wanted these investigations, as we learned later on in -- in reading the July 25th call transcript. Isn't that right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:39:38.440 - 06:39:44.400]: The president, through Mr. Giuliani, as conveyed through Mr. Giuliani, wanted the investigations. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:39:44.400 - 06:39:55.880]: More -- Mr. Tim Morrison came in yesterday, and in his deposition testimony as well as yesterday, disparaged you too. He called you "the Gordon problem." GORDON SONDLAND [06:39:55.880 - 06:40:01.400]: That's what my wife calls me. Maybe they're talking. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:40:01.400 - 06:40:01.840]: He GORDON SONDLAND [06:40:01.840 - 06:40:05.320]: -- Should I be worried? RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:40:05.320 - 06:40:23.320]: Maybe. You know, on October 8th of this year, the president tweet -- tweeted that you are a really good man and a great American. And of course, on November 8th, one month later, he -- he said let me just tell you, I hardly know the gentleman. GORDON SONDLAND [06:40:23.320 - 06:40:24.800]: Easy come, easy go. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:40:24.800 - 06:40:49.760]: You know, what I'm concerned about -- you were part of the three amigos. But what I'm really concerned about, Ambassador Sondland, in that the president and the good folks over here, my Republican colleagues, are now casting you as the one amigo, the one lonely amigo they're going to throw under the bus. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:40:49.760 - 06:41:08.240]: But the truth is that, as you said in your opening statement, the suggestion that you were engaged in some of rogue diplomacy or irregular channel of diplomacy is "absolutely false." Isn't that right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:41:08.240 - 06:41:09.080]: That's correct. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:41:09.080 - 06:41:18.480]: The presumption that military aid was conditioned on investigations was based on Mulvaney's statement that we saw on the video. Isn't that right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:41:18.480 - 06:41:23.360]: Well, I didn't have the benefit at that time of Mulvaney's statement. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:41:23.360 - 06:41:27.320]: But you would stand by the presumption that you had based on what you know now, right? GORDON SONDLAND [06:41:27.320 - 06:41:28.160]: Correct. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:41:28.160 - 06:41:46.080]: and on September 1 when you told Andriy Yermak your presumption, which you've told us about military aid being con -- conditioned on the investigations, you then told Mr. Morrison what you told Yermak, and Morrison did not try to dispute your presumption, correct? GORDON SONDLAND [06:41:46.080 - 06:41:53.160]: I don't recall him disputing it. I think I went right over to him and -- and just repeated the conversation. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:41:53.160 - 06:41:58.320]: And when you told Vice President Pence your concerns, he did not dispute that as well? GORDON SONDLAND [06:41:58.320 - 06:41:59.520]: He didn't respond. He just listened. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:41:59.520 - 06:42:00.200]: The time of the gentleman RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:42:00.200 - 06:42:00.480]: -- And when you told ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:42:00.480 - 06:42:01.800]: -- The time of the gentleman has expired RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:42:01.800 - 06:42:04.080]: -- Secretary Pompeo that wasn't disputed as well. GORDON SONDLAND [06:42:04.080 - 06:42:06.080]: I don't recall. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI [06:42:06.080 - 06:42:06.400]: Thank you. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:42:06.400 - 06:42:12.760]: That concludes the member questioning. Mr. Nunes, do you have any closing remarks? DEVIN NUNES [06:42:12.760 - 06:42:40.320]: Just briefly, Ambassador, I know you want to get on a plane so I want to thank you for your indulgence today. Once again, the American people have seen another failure of their preposterous conspiracy theory, which -- and that's if there conspiracy theory doesn't change between now and our next hearing, which is in a few hours from now, or another hour or so. And it keeps changing every day. DEVIN NUNES [06:42:40.320 - 06:42:55.040]: The claim, Ambassador, that you had an irregular -- you were accused of having a -- an irregular channel, drug deals. Now you're supposedly one amigo. Nobody on this side of the aisle claimed that you were one amigo. GORDON SONDLAND [06:42:55.040 - 06:42:56.240]: I lost my amigos? DEVIN NUNES [06:42:56.240 - 06:43:29.480]: Yeah, not from us. Not from us. No bribes given to -- that you made any bribes to the Ukrainian people or to the Ukrainian president. Your conspir -- coconspirator, Kurt Volker, I find it remarkable and troubling how the Democrats and their collaborators in the press have been able to vilify Ambassador Volker, who was supposed to work on these matters in Ukraine like you, Ambassador. DEVIN NUNES [06:43:29.480 - 06:44:04.720]: There was a very regular channel and no amount of storytelling by the left and the Democrats on this dais will change that. It was the regular channel. Testimony received today was far from compelling, conclusive, and provides zero evidence of any of the crimes that have been alleged. In fact, Ambassador Sondland testified that he presumed the temporary purse -- pause in military aid was conditioned on Ukraine carrying out the investigations the Democrats are desperate to portray as nefarious. DEVIN NUNES [06:44:04.720 - 06:44:32.360]: The Democrats have, as is their custom, sees on this presumption as proof they can use it against the president. However, Ambassador Sondland testified in his deposition that when he asked President Trump what do you want from Ukraine, President Trump replied I want nothing. There is no quid pro quo. Let me repeat, President Trump said I want nothing. DEVIN NUNES [06:44:32.360 - 06:45:02.240]: There is no quid pro quo. This comes on the heels of the testimony by Ambassador Volker that he saw no evidence of bribery, extortion, quid pro quo, or treasonous actions. We didn't get to ask him about obstruction of justice because we didn't know that was on the table until today. Like the president's call with President Zelensky, Democrats want the American people to believe, as one Democrat on this committee put it, that hearsay is much better than direct evidence. DEVIN NUNES [06:45:02.240 - 06:45:38.160]: And I think Mr. Ratcliffe from Texas laid out the direct evidence that we have from your testimony today. Nothing we have heard establishes a claim that the president acted improperly in his dealings with Ukraine, and certainly nothing has been presented to support anything near impeachment. In the meantime, Mr. Chair, we continue to have no answers to the questions that only you know, starting with who is the whistleblower who gave birth to this hoax and what was the nature of his coordination with the Democrats on this committee? DEVIN NUNES [06:45:38.160 - 06:46:07.080]: Second, what is the full extent of Ukraine's election meddling against the Trump campaign in 2016? And finally, why did Burisma hire Hunter Biden? What did he do for them? And did his position impact any U.S. government actions under the Obama administration? Another hearing in the books and no answers to basic -- three material, actual questions that we need answers to. I yield back. DEVIN NUNES [06:46:07.080 - 06:46:09.640]: And thank you, Ambassador, for being here. GORDON SONDLAND [06:46:09.640 - 06:46:10.120]: Thank you. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:46:10.120 - 06:46:38.920]: Ambassador Sondland thank you for your testimony today. This is a seminal moment in our investigation and the evidence you have brought forward is deeply significant and troubling. It's been a long hearing and I know Americans watching throughout the country may not have had the opportunity to watch all of it so I'm going to go through a few of the highlights and I'm not going to try to paraphrase what you said. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:46:38.920 - 06:47:03.400]: I am going to refer to your opening statement. We all understood that if we refuse to work with Mr. Giuliani we would lose an important opportunity to cement relations between the United States and Ukraine so we followed the presidents orders. Mr. Giuliani's request were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for President Zelensky. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:47:03.400 - 06:47:36.000]: Mr. Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing investigations of the 2016 election, DNC server and Burisma. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the President of the United States and we knew that these investigations were important to the President. Later you testified I tried diligently to ask why the aid was suspended but I never received a clear answer. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:47:36.000 - 06:48:07.880]: In the absence of any credible explanation for the suspension of aid I later came to believe that the resumption of security aid would not occur until there was a public statement from Ukraine committing to the investigations of the 2016 election and Burisma as Mr. Giuliani had demanded. I shared concerns of the potential quid pro quo regarding the security aid with Senator Ron Johnson and I also shared my concern with the Ukrainians. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:48:07.880 - 06:48:40.360]: So much for the Ukrainians didn't know. You can't have a quid pro quo unless the Ukrainians know and you have testified today ambassador the Ukrainians new. You further testified Mr. Giuliani emphasized that the President wanted a public statement from President Zelensky committing Ukraine to look into corruption issues. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:48:40.360 - 06:49:05.960]: Mr. Giuliani specifically mention the 2016 election including the DNC server and Burisma as to topics of importance to the President. In reference to the July 10 meeting at the White House which you attended with Ambassador Bolton and others in Ukrainian delegation you said I recall mentioning the prerequisite of investigations before any White House call or meeting. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:49:05.960 - 06:49:35.720]: You further testified again Mr. Giuliani's demand that President Zelensky make a public statement about investigations I knew that the topic of investigations was important to President Trump. You testified later I know that members of this committee have frequently framed these complicated issues in the form of a simple question was there a quid pro quo. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:49:35.720 - 06:50:20.640]: As I testified previously with regard to the requested White House call and White House meeting -- me -- the answer is yes. We all understood these prerequisites for the White House call and White House meeting reflected President Trump's desires and requirements. Later on the subject of security aid you testified in the absence of any credible explanation for the hold I came to the conclusion that the aid like the White House visit was jeopardized in preparation for the September one meeting in Warsaw. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:50:20.640 - 06:50:45.000]: I asked Secretary Pompeo whether a face to face conversation between Trump with the Zelensky could help break the logjam. And this is from an email that the State Department refuses to provide to us but you have provided to us, Ambassador. It reads should we block time in Warsaw for a short pull aside for POTUS to meet Zelensky? ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:50:45.000 - 06:51:09.200]: I would ask Zelensky to look him in the eye, that is the President and tell him that once Ukraine's new justice folks are in place mid-September that Z should be able to move forward publicly with confidence on those issues of importance to POTUS and to the United States, hopefully that will break the logjam and Secretary Pompeo's reply yes. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:51:09.200 - 06:51:35.680]: Not what issues of importance to the POTUS, not what are you talking about Ambassador Sondland because Secretary Pompeo was on the July 25 phone call, he knew what issues were important to POTUS and there were two of them, the investigation into 2016 and they DNC server and the investigation into the Bidens. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:51:35.680 - 06:52:11.200]: By the end of August you testified my belief was that if Ukraine did something to demonstrate a serious intention to fight corruption specifically addressing Burisma and the 2016 server then the hold on military aid would be lifted. I mentioned to Vice President Pence before the meetings with Ukrainians that I had concerns that the delay in aid had become tied to the issue of investigations and as you testified he gave you no response know, what are you talking about, Ambassador? ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:52:11.200 - 06:52:35.280]: How could that be Ambassador? How do we clear this up, Ambassador? He merely nodded his in or took it in and of course the record of that 25th call between President Trump and Zelensky was in the vice presidents reading earlier. Then you testified my goal at the time was to do what was necessary to get the aid released, to break the logjam. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:52:35.280 - 06:53:02.560]: I believe that the public statement we have been discussing for weeks was essential to advancing that goal. Now my colleague seem to believe and let me add to about this call you had with the President you have confirmed today. In addition to claiming there was no quid pro quo the President was adamant that President Zelensky had to quote clear things up and do it in public. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:53:02.560 - 06:53:42.520]: That is what you have confirmed, that is what you also told Ambassador Taylor so he would deny there was a quid pro quo but he was adamant that Zelensky had to quote clear things up and do it in public. Now I have said a lot of things about President Trump over the years and I have very strong feelings about President Trump which are neither here nor there but I will say this on the presidents behalf I do not believe that the President would allow himself to be led by the nose by Rudy Giuliani or Ambassador Sondland or anybody else. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:53:42.520 - 06:54:09.040]: I think the President was the one who decided whether a meeting would happen, whether aid would be lifted, not anyone who worked for him. And so the answer to the question who was refusing the meeting with the Zelensky that you believe should take place and Ambassador Volker believed should take place and everybody believe should take place in the question was who was the one standing in the way of that meeting? ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:54:09.040 - 06:54:30.320]: Who was the one refusing to take that meeting? There is only one answer to that question and it is Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States. So who is holding up the military assistance? Was it you, Ambassador Sondland? No, it wasn't. Was it Ambassador Volker? No. Was it Ambassador Taylor? No. Was it Deputy Secretary Kent? ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:54:30.320 - 06:55:05.440]: No. Was it Secretary of state Pompeo? No. Who had the decision to release the aid? It was one person, Donald J. Trump President of the United States. Now my colleague seem to think unless the President says the magic words that I hereby bribed the Ukrainians that there's no evidence of bribery or other high crimes of misdemeanors but let's look to the best evidence of what is in the presidents head, what is his intent, what is the reason behind the hold on the meeting and on the aid? ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:55:05.440 - 06:55:28.920]: Let's look at what the President has to say, let's look at what's undisputed about what the President has to say and you know how we know what the President has to say? Not because of what you have represented or others have represented but because we have a record of his conversation and with who? The one who really matters, with the other President, Zelensky and this is what he says. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:55:28.920 - 06:56:11.480]: He says Rudy very much knows what is happening and he is a very capable guy. This is after he says he wants a favor and he goes into crowd strike in 2016. He says Rudy very much knows what is happening and is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman was bad news and the people she was dealing with in Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that the other thing there's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General that would be great. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:56:11.480 - 06:56:35.240]: Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you could look into it, it sounds horrible to me. So what is in the presidents mind when he has placed this otherwise inexplicable hold on the aid when he refuses to take the meeting? What is on his mind? Biden. He makes that abundantly clear. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:56:35.240 - 06:57:00.080]: I understand Ambassador you said you didn't make the connection between Burisma and Biden. I'll let the American people judge the credibility of that answer but there's no mistaking what Donald Trump's interest was. There is no mistaking about what Donald Trump meant when he had that call with you on an unsecure phone as you are sitting there in an outdoor terrace in Ukraine when the President said investigation he meant Biden. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:57:00.080 - 06:57:40.680]: He made that abundantly clear to the President of the Ukraine the day before. The question is not what the President meant, the question is not whether he was responsible for holding up the aid, he was. The question is not whether everybody knew it, apparently they didn't. The question is what are we prepared to do about it? Is there any accountability or are we forced to conclude that this is just now all the world that we live in when a President of the United States can withhold vital military aid from an ally at war with the Russians, an ally finding our fight to -- to defend our country against Russian aggression? ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:57:40.680 - 06:58:16.920]: Are we prepared to say in the words of Mick Mulvaney get over it or get used to it? We are not prepared to say that. We are not prepared to say that and I appreciate Ambassador Volker -- Ambassador Sondland I appreciate the fact that you have not opined on whether the President should be impeached or should not be impeached or whether the crime of bribery or the impeachable offense of bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors has been committed, that is for us to decide in consultation with our constituents in our conscience. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:58:16.920 - 06:58:46.240]: That is for us to decide and much as my colleagues have said otherwise this is not an easy decision for any of us and as much as my colleagues may say otherwise this is not something we relish. For over a year I resisted this whole idea of going down the road to impeachment but it was made necessary and not by the whistleblower but by the actions of the President. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:58:46.240 - 06:59:20.440]: I am continually struck how my colleagues would suggest that because the President got caught we should ignore the fact that he was conditioning official acts in order to get political favors in order to get an investigation against his rival. Getting caught is no defense. Not to a violation of the Constitution or to a violation of his oath of office and it certainly doesn't give us reason to ignore our own oath of office. ADAM B. SCHIFF [06:59:20.440 - 06:59:22.280]: We are adjourned.